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April 30, 2003 07:38 pm ET - research by amer

Public Service Announcement

Today, NC took action against many people for abusing an exploit related to castle taxes and the sale of an item from one location to another. From what was said by NC on the forums, some users were even permanently banned for prior offenses.

Here is some LC advice on this matter. If you think something is an exploit (that is, you say in chat "@Hey guys, I think this is an exploit"), please report it before you start telling people about it. That way, you have some defense when NC bans you and asks why you didn't report it.

April 30, 2003 07:41 pm ET (#1)

Tueur
Loyal Fan
60 posts
04-05-02

Haha...........suckas. Good to see some justice once in a while. :p

April 30, 2003 07:42 pm ET (#2)

Silvos
Loyal Fan
0 posts
02-20-03

Ouch...harsh...

April 30, 2003 07:43 pm ET (#3)

FlyZ
Loyal Fan
791 posts
11-11-01

o.O..... i didn't login for 24 hrs.. news to me

April 30, 2003 07:44 pm ET (#4)

L0RDVERM0N
Loyal Fan
46 posts
12-16-02

that advice is BS. THEY SHOULDNT BANN PPL FOR USING SOMETHING THEY PUT IN. -.- I hate u NC

April 30, 2003 07:45 pm ET (#5)

L0RDVERM0N
Loyal Fan
46 posts
12-16-02

not bs from u LC but from NC. it doesnt matter LC if NC wants to bann something they will. so.. any advice is bad cuz they are playing god

April 30, 2003 07:50 pm ET (#6)

Kaerid
LC Reporter
46 posts
09-06-02

one word...karma!

April 30, 2003 07:52 pm ET (#7)

TheReaper
Loyal Fan
7 posts
11-14-02

DAMM STRAIGHT bann em,lmao bout time to.

April 30, 2003 07:59 pm ET (#8)

PebDiGaetano
Loyal Fan
103 posts
10-12-02

um NC posted that they made that change an why would they make that change if they didnt want people to use it??

why was this not discovered on test server???

It should of never reached live servers apperently Test server doesnt TEST anything

April 30, 2003 08:01 pm ET (#9)

hynn1
Loyal Fan
5 posts
11-01-02

Okay this is stupid..Why ban someone for talking about the bug?
thats very stupid and NCI needs some chill pills NCI just wants money
why do they care if we talk about a bug?

April 30, 2003 08:02 pm ET (#10)

Rage
Loyal Fan
8 posts
01-03-03

this just killed the dep server.. gg nc, u ruined the game for many people taking out the strongest players for the AA side, princes and key figures in the community >_<

April 30, 2003 08:09 pm ET (#11)

BigPope
LC Admin
622 posts
01-18-02

Hynn1 people that talked about the bug before it got fixed got a 3 day ban. Accourding the the legal documents, they should have also receive perma bans just like the people that exploited it.

People are always shouting for bans when its people they dont like, but when its friends or high publicized characters, they all cry for them.

They knew that the prices were getting changed the next day to prevent this from happening and thats why they did it.

April 30, 2003 08:10 pm ET (#12)

Morticae
LC Reporter
103 posts
09-25-02

Guys! Check this out! I talked my friend into letting me in on how things are done inside NC and I was lucky enough to be around when this whole thing went down!

Check it out here!
https://webspace.utexas.edu/phipsi/www/lineage/ncmonkies.htm

April 30, 2003 08:10 pm ET (#13)

speedlab
Loyal Fan
124 posts
11-27-01

The only people to blame are the ones who exploited the bug. They knew what they were doing was wrong and it serves them right to lose their priveledges to play.

April 30, 2003 08:17 pm ET (#14)

Tissot
Loyal Fan
180 posts
06-22-02

Have u guys found the weapons of mass destruction yet?!?

April 30, 2003 08:19 pm ET (#15)

muleque
Loyal Fan
2 posts
10-11-02

Ok, if I"m in a pledge that owns a castle, and I am told "Hey, here's an entrepreneurial idea, go buy stuff from this vendor and sell it to our own store to boost revenue!", I"m not gonna think twice about it being against TOS. It's not! Even if I'm doing it maliciously thinking "Hey, Pandora sells RC scrolls for 100a and if I sell them to our store whose taxes are 50% makes the revenue 300a for me and tax for the castle revenue!!", I'm sorry, that's still not a TOS issue. It's something NCI should look at and think of a solution. If some players, or a whole pledge want to blow all their cash by doing this, then so be it. It's NCI's mistake for lack of foresight. At the very worst, NCI should take away all revenue for a period of castle ownership warning the pledge to not do those practices anymore, and then they should fix those things. Perhaps make things purchased not returnable at any vendor. Only make mop drops sellable. I dunno, it's up to NCI to figure that one out.

But in all reality, I'm sure that the offenders did more than just be entrepreneurs. Judging by that whiners remarks in Templar Gaming's board, I'd say he's quite guilty sounding as he describes justifying some hacks and exploits, but not others. He sounds lke the kind of guy that goes around looking for trouble and exploits.

April 30, 2003 08:20 pm ET (#16)

flexy24k
Loyal Fan
215 posts
12-10-02

From what I heard only the ones who actually used the bug were perma banned. Those who just talked about it got 3 day bans unless they had prior felonies on their record, in which case they also received the end dai penalty...

April 30, 2003 08:20 pm ET (#17)

Typhoon
Loyal Fan
61 posts
12-27-02

Looks like when one side does something wrong its an automatic ban... but when the other side does something to violate the TOS, NC looks the other way ... Hmmmm... still NC believes it violated its TOS. Too bad they can't be evenhanded about it and treat everyone the same.

April 30, 2003 08:20 pm ET (#18)

EX-CON
Loyal Fan
597 posts
03-19-02

sol never get bann for this kinda of stuff.

April 30, 2003 08:26 pm ET (#19)

Daos
Loyal Fan
182 posts
05-31-02

name some o fthe people who got banned plz!!!!

April 30, 2003 08:30 pm ET (#20)

sam12345
Loyal Fan
27 posts
07-01-02

that doesnt seem like a bug, buying low selling high...
just my 2cent

April 30, 2003 08:30 pm ET (#21)

FatBoy
Loyal Fan
45 posts
09-07-02

The reason that SOL and the alliance never gets banned is because they have a high lvl pledge member that works at NC O.o. So they just dismiss everything that is siad to be bad about them. Which is totally unfair.

April 30, 2003 08:39 pm ET (#22)

juiceface
Loyal Fan
3 posts
12-11-02

wo0T! Morticae, thats absolutely hilarious! =) As bad as this is for some people, I'm glad to see others are still having fun.

Thanks for the laugh!

April 30, 2003 08:59 pm ET (#23)

BigPope
LC Admin
622 posts
01-18-02

I think you guys dont relize how much money they made over this. It wasnt just a small ammount like 5 mil, it was more like 500 mil. I think they would have just let things fly if it was only a few mil. But they did it enough for NC to notice what was going on.

I guess the only thing you can do is try and boycott NCsoft over this act. Here is a list of some of the games they own stock in, Horizons(asia), Everquest(asia), City of Heroes, Exarch, Tabula Rasa, Shining Lore, All Pantagram Games (They are releasing 7 or so different console games, nc owns 60% of the company), Auto Assault, Guild Wars, and then Lineage(2) and a unnamed game called Project "Aion"

They also have made deals with Intel(korea) and i think Nvidia(asia).

April 30, 2003 09:18 pm ET (#24)

amer
LC Admin
864 posts
07-11-01

AND had the audacity to talk about the exploit IN GAME. That takes balls.

April 30, 2003 09:22 pm ET (#25)

cabroa-style
Loyal Fan
45 posts
10-07-02

too lucky that i am too dumb to figure out such "bugs"^^

April 30, 2003 09:28 pm ET (#26)

mp34567
Loyal Fan
89 posts
06-28-02

I still dont think its right to bann people for it.
It should never have gotten out of test server.
If it did its nc's own fault.
But then again nc admitting they made a mistake? that would be the end of the world.
They could just take the back the money made or do a rollback.
Doing this just upsets the whole balance of the game.
*wonders if he still has a pledge to return to*

April 30, 2003 09:42 pm ET (#27)

Substance
Loyal Fan
186 posts
09-25-02

katana whitehand kannabis gadeth dreamworks aerith bravehearts canious machoman all got banned from NC coz of cheating

April 30, 2003 09:45 pm ET (#28)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

Listen, the people were banned for using an exploit. The EULA & TOS are clear that people will be banned for this sort of thing. They deserved it - regardless of whether they believe it themselves.

Fatboy, how can you say that? You think because you make something up people will believe you? The reason that SOL was not banned for using this exploit is that they did NOT use it. Ponder the logic to that a moment - If you try hard enough you should be able to create lies that are much more created AND MAKE SENSE! Imagine that. (literally)

Muleque the TOS and EULA are pretty explicit in explaining what will happen for using exploits. Perhaps duping a few billion dollars is not a big deal in your book. To the Lineage economy its another thing entirely, and to make matters worse most of these guys are bad guys. The kind of people who run around in coi cancelling you and hasting monsters. These are the kind of people the lineage community should be happy to get rid of!

I admit that some of the players banned never caused problems before. But the fact that they have such blatent disregard for the rules makes me think they would hurt other players if it were fun for them. Then again, Im just speaking my mind, i have no idea what their true motives are.

April 30, 2003 09:46 pm ET (#29)

Alexei
Loyal Fan
34 posts
09-11-02

I guess it is still nice to be somewhat n00b and not know everything ^^

April 30, 2003 09:53 pm ET (#30)

Prince Drathen
Loyal Fan
223 posts
12-04-02

Whoa...I'm usually all for everything NCSoft does, but this is way too horrible. Banning players for taking advantage of a problem NCSoft created? Buying low and selling high can never be considered a bug by anyone. That's how things work in the real world. There should be no problem if it happens in a game. NCSoft has no one to blame but themselves. And what's worse, they've banned important members of the Lineage community. What the hell is the test server for? Doesn't the test server act as a safeguard for these types of things? I don't even think we should have a test server. If works on Korean live servers, it should be fine here. I doubt any text translations will cause any irreperable damage.

Hopefully, NCSoft is going to do something about this, seeing as we can't really afford to be having people banned. Especially some of the server's most elite players.

BTW, did people get banned on Ken Rauhel and LoA too? I'll bet not.

April 30, 2003 09:55 pm ET (#31)

BloodLusts
Loyal Fan
313 posts
01-26-02

NoLuck whats ur name on DEP SERVER
I WANT TO SOOOOO PK UR A$$

This stoopid Action by NC is gona make a lot of ppl who didnt get ban want to quit
me for one who is already on the verge of quiting -_-

But the number of peeps on daily is about 300-400 its gona go to 200-300
soon 100-200
then no one if NC acts like a biatch --

PERM BAN IS NOT THE ANSWER NC !!!!!!!!!!!!!
TEMP BAN IS GOOD ENUF FOR THEM TO LEARN THIER LESSON
YOU SHOULD GIVE THEM A WARNING --
FUCK I HAVNT SEEN 1 SoL MEMBER BANNED FOR ALL THE SHIT THEY DO
I DONT WANT TO GET STARTED ABOUT WHAT THEY DO
BUT SERIOUSLY NC UR A [Something 1 Word Cant Describe]

April 30, 2003 10:09 pm ET (#32)

Prince Drathen
Loyal Fan
223 posts
12-04-02

From what I understand, only Castle owners could exploit this bug? And the Alliance only has 1 castle right now. So how can you all be so hypocritical?

What's AA saying now? "Uhhh...We have 4 Castles, but we didn't exploit the errors, we swear."

April 30, 2003 10:11 pm ET (#33)

Protocol
Loyal Fan
271 posts
03-26-02

BigPope i think u should get all facts straightend. I pretty sure it wasn't 500m they made if they STOPED after 1hr of doing it. It really didn't make much and wasn't worth the time, thats why they STOPED.

Think about it, if it made 500m in 1hr (the duration of the time they did around) why not do it all night and make +8-9 sets? they could've easily bought and blown every single item being sold on chat with that kinda money in that short period of time.

Some people were asked by friends to buy prats. Aerith for example sold ONE prat to pandora and got banned, others for only few minutes.

Really NC should have been able to see this coming with the update. The update itself is pretty useless on its own. It wouldn't help anyone so why put it in? No one goez to ti nor hunts there long.

Many ppl are quitting now (I included) because the real point of this game was to play with friends, but why play a game that bans all your friends? Anywayz there's going to be alot of ppl talking trash soon. So goodbye to all friends and lets hope our friends get their acc back~~~

Dep Server end dai~~~~~~

April 30, 2003 10:13 pm ET (#34)

killamage24
Loyal Fan
72 posts
01-05-02

wow, noluck, ur comparing duping and smart thinking. duping is basicly a bug that someone found on accident.(if someone only plays lineage to try and find ways to dupe stuff, ....(-.-)...ten bucks says u dont have any social life)

NC makes us pay $15 for a month of lineage.....I BET YOU THE SERVERS COST WAYYYYYYY LESSS TO PAY FOR COMPARED TO THE AMMOUNT OF MONEY NC TAKES IN, IN A YEAR.I MEAN C'MON, THE SERVERS SUCK THAT THEY RUN THE GAME ON.THEY'RE TRYING TO MAKE A PROFIT RIGHT???????????MAYBE WE SHOULD BAN NC FOR SELLING THERE STUFF FOR A HIGH PRICE AND PAYING (i bet)ALMOST NOTHING FOR THEIR CRAPPY 10KB SERVERS....

....its called thinking and not solving ur problems with banning people

April 30, 2003 10:17 pm ET (#35)

aaronhead
Loyal Fan
93 posts
10-24-01

it is wrong of nc to ban them for a feature they put into the game. I even rememeber nc saying they plan to introduce a trade type system. I warning is understandable but to ban is ignorant. I am done with the game after 3+ years and this assures I will never return. thanks for all the fun enemies and allies alike.
Aaron

April 30, 2003 10:18 pm ET (#36)

Templar_Quest
Loyal Fan
posts
04-30-03

This is very sad to see. NCI Sets the prices for items bought and sold at shops. Do they actually analyze the potential issues their published changes will have on the game? Obviously not, they continue to make changes without regard to the gamer.

Now such a change has resulted in NCI banning players/customers when in fact NCI itself is to blame. NCI looks ridiculous in the gaming community and has made a big mistake.

Whats really funny is how some think its the gamers fault. Amer, LC, NCI, and only a few others; Do you really think a 14 yr old(Just an age im using, some 20yr olds act like they are 12, hehe) is more likely or less likely to take advantage of a profit gaining published change in the game?

What happened to testing and analyzing potential changes before you publish?

This is plain common sense. Lets support the Gamer and do what we can to make this right. People invest money and time to find their accounts banned because of NCI publishing mistakes to a live server? Simply ridiculous!

April 30, 2003 10:36 pm ET (#38)

DarkMenace
Loyal Fan
2 posts
10-15-02

Ya but why is it an exploit and is all of a sudden reported when Paldo has taken some power away from SOL/FL. Now all of a sudden its so bad and the top people of the AA is now perm banned. Its total BS When we all told NC what SOl has been doing the just brush it off. NC sux this game sux and SOL SUX!!

April 30, 2003 10:43 pm ET (#39)

theice
Loyal Fan
6 posts
12-18-02

NoLuck -_- What are u?
The reason that SOL was not banned for using this exploit is that they did NOT use it????????????????
They DID USE it by buying oranges at giran and sell at oren.
A lot of ppl know it and u don't? too bad -_-
SoL members even admit that they have done it -_-
IF they did not to that, i wonder how they got that good weapon and ac -_-
castle don't make much money.
I heard bbknight had more than 5 +9tsu...
do u even know how much u need to make +9tsu? and more than 5 of them...
and all the fight money they had..
Its not possible to pay all that normally -_-
I know sol made millions of adena using "exploit" no one got banned due to that.. and now what?
it's sad that why NC is really doing this.
DEP server won't be fun, even for sol peeps
Its not funny only lvling up.
U will see how this game is gonna be w/o fighting..Boring..

April 30, 2003 10:43 pm ET (#40)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

BloodLusts I am Untitled on Dep. I look forward to you falling on my sword. Who are you?

Buy low sell high? This was a carefully used castle exploit that did not happen by accident. OOPS i just gained 100k! OOPS it just happened again! OOPS im a billionaire, i bet NC will reward me!

You gotta figure each person would make about 100k every 20 seconds (that is if they worked slowly!). They had at least 15 people working on this for at least 7 hours. Why stop at 500m? I don't think they did. They may say they did, but I doubt it. In fact I don't care if it was 500m or 500b or 500t, they should be banned.

Please ask yourselves these questions before you side with the cheaters:
Is this fair to us normal players who have to make money slowly by hunting?
Do you think it was meant to work like this?
Do you think they knew what they were doing when they did it?
Why do you side with them?

Most of all I am interested in what you people think is something a player should be banned for?!

April 30, 2003 10:44 pm ET (#41)

amer
LC Admin
864 posts
07-11-01

Quest:
Listen to the examples people are saying. People abused the OJ exploit and NC couldn't catch them. The n-prat exploit was dealt with in this manner because they were *bragging about it IN GAME*. I would agree that NC was too harsh if the banned players were caught off guard and said "Wait a minute, this is wrong? I thought it was a new feature?"

That's NOT what happened. The banned parties referred to this *as an exploit*, used it *as an exploit* knowing full well that it was *an exploit*.

If you call it an exploit YOURSELF, buh-bye. At least don't admit it was an exploit in a place NC can monitor.

April 30, 2003 10:46 pm ET (#42)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

theice, I really dont care about that. I did not know that SOL did that, but I know that DOM did. The oren dupe was different though where the people were limited to making maybe 5-10k every 2 minutes. If i had to choose a side, I would go with banning all people that did it rather than not banning any of them.

April 30, 2003 10:53 pm ET (#43)

Tehu
Loyal Fan
4 posts
02-18-02

Templar_Quest formed this one well.

I also agree this was NC's own fault and it's not all the gamers to blaim.

NC should reconsider the punishment for the players, withdraw the profits they made and admit their own mistake for the publish. After all, they are also only humans in there.

April 30, 2003 11:00 pm ET (#44)

OhBoy
Loyal Fan
35 posts
02-18-03

total bs bigpope. there is no way that thing made 500 million adena.

i never even heard of this little prat thing until it was mentioned on lineage.com official boards.

i have never had any infractions on my account. i was perm banned.

i bought and sold prats for about 5 minutes...then i went to sleep. next day while hunting i was kicked. nc never told me why until about 5 hours later.

April 30, 2003 11:09 pm ET (#45)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

Tehu, it is obvious that you did not read the EULA. In doing so you would see that you have agreed not to exploit any bug. You have also agreed to report it immediately after you find out about it. Had someone found out about it, then reported it to NC without continuing to use it, I bet they would not be banned.

Forget blaming NC for the publish that could be exploited if you tried hard enough. Please blame Microsoft for making DirectX on which Lineage is run and through which people were banned for because they used an exploit. (Please do not email Microsoft about this, I am kidding. Good lord.)

Perhaps you could change my mind if you were to explain to me how this is NC's fault. In my heart I feel that the cheaters should be banned, not because of who they are, but because of what they did. How is what they did acceptable???

April 30, 2003 11:15 pm ET (#46)

EX-CON
Loyal Fan
597 posts
03-19-02

sorry machao nc sucks they pure fagots cant even fix thier probs when a store makes a mistake of selling prince u take advantage of it and they dont stop u same way nc shouldent ban ppl for thier mistakes cause they suck dick all day instead of actually working. Iam Paldo i didnt get bann and did or not i still say they ************ zzzzzz it isnt or was sol faults its pure nc fault i got no pledge now cause of them fags.

NC if i c any of u in rl i will seriously slice u open.

April 30, 2003 11:23 pm ET (#47)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

EX-CON, Because of NC's sexual preference, Paldo was forced to use an exploit? You lose, try again.

April 30, 2003 11:29 pm ET (#48)

Lebannen
Loyal Fan
6 posts
01-28-03

To you people thinking this is overly harsh, this all happened after NC posted the change in prices to the test server changelog. This means they knew about the bug, and were changing it. The parties on Dep then used this fact to look at why they were changing it; this isn't a case of buying low and selling high, it's a case of using an unforseen extra factor - castle tax - to make a profit on an otherwise unprofitable transaction.

Anyone who "finds this out" after NC makes the change on test server, proceeds to refer to it as an exploit, and uses the exploit to make money - on their heads be it. That is clearly an exploit situation. Only the prince/princess can know how much money is being made, but I can imagine it adding up veeeery easily. I feel a little sorry for anyone who was just asked by their prince/princess to buy and sell scrolls without a reason, but I believe NC would have checked pledge chat logs and individual chat logs.

Anyone who knowingly abuses an exploit to get themselves ahead in a game deserves a ban of some kind, imho, and although a permaban is on the harsh end it's still pretty fair. Exempting people from this rule just because they're high-level is stupid; it's discriminatory, it unbalances a server further and sets a bad example.

If your friends were banned, that's a good reason to quit; but defending an exploit action would just make the game more unbalanced. I'm always sad to see people leave, but I can also see why some bans are made. Exploits fall into the same category as bots and dupe cheats for a reason.

April 30, 2003 11:41 pm ET (#49)

Daos
Loyal Fan
182 posts
05-31-02

good riddance to those cheaters... especially Bravehearts, what a greedy loser

April 30, 2003 11:42 pm ET (#50)

SeoulSurvivor
Loyal Fan
55 posts
09-12-02

Ur wrong NC. This time ur wrong. Period.

April 30, 2003 11:45 pm ET (#51)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

Even if you don't like me, or won't listen to me, read what Lebannen just said. His explanation is so much better than anything I could have written myself.

There are plenty of reasons to hate NC and their support methods; this is not one of them.

April 30, 2003 11:48 pm ET (#52)

iNTOtHEnIGHT
Loyal Fan
10 posts
11-22-02

The only problem i felt with this banning is the only reason they were banned is becuz it was such a large amount that was made. If they gunna perm ban for an exploit it should happen to small and large, Nc's justice system is a lil off. Tho they also should have looked at it in a buissness sense Dep is alrdy dying off of customers then they ban some of there best. I hope at least they learn from lineage and fix any of these problems so it does not affect lineage2. Maybe Nc sees it a different way tho, i bet next time theres a bug like that some1 gunna report it. Persoanlly tho i think 80% of the people on Dep server if they found/been able 2 do that they would have as well, i mean if some1 in real life coming up to you and being like hey wanna make alot of money for no work ? what are you gunna say no ?

May 01, 2003 12:03 am ET (#53)

EX-CON
Loyal Fan
597 posts
03-19-02

nc maid the price change nc told ppl nc didnt fix paldo used the so called bug which nc left paldo ban? if u think what happend is right u fucked up.

May 01, 2003 12:05 am ET (#54)

Retro
Loyal Fan
5 posts
09-18-02

I don't think they should be banned. This is what NC gets for having an artificial economy. Doesn't anyone there think when they program this stuff? Pandora suddenly has 200,000 prats. Don't you think she would stop buying them? Does Pandora really have 500 million adena to blow on prats? Cmon!

Now the players pay the price for lackluster programming.

May 01, 2003 12:11 am ET (#55)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

EX-CON,
There is a bank down the street from my house. They have money in it. You CAN go and rob it. Should you rob it?

How about this: People can die. Should you kill them?

(EX-CON here is a hint. NO!!!)

Retro,
Perhaps that is an option. However, how much would it suck when everyone is trying to sell Hunter Bows and no NPC will buy them? People should be responsible for their actions.

What you seem to be doing is asking NC to idiot proof the game and risk pissing off players who do not cause problems. Is this really your solution? I personally do not want to be responsible for what NASH, PALDO, and FCA did. Let them be punished for breaking the rules, not me and you.

May 01, 2003 12:30 am ET (#56)

Mackdown
Loyal Fan
175 posts
06-06-02

lol #49

The bans should've just been temporary, or at least a Monitor should've warned them that they "could" be perm banned. The fact that it was done and then poof they were all gone sorta sucks for all of them....especially when it was something NC mentioned in the "in testing" part of their site. They told everyone about it! Something like that should've been published to the live servers before test server if not at the same time. Its not like they needed anyone to test how someone could exploit it.

Sometimes I wonder what goes on in their heads...

A quick analogy: Suppose I put in the daily newspaper about how I leave $500 under my door mat but I'll be removing it in 2 days and left my address. Obviously SOMEONE will steal it. Sure, if they stole it, it would be my fault that I told everyone about it! You think someone would say the theif was stupid and should go to jail? No, everyone would say I'm stupid for telling everyone about it!

May 01, 2003 12:34 am ET (#57)

amer
LC Admin
864 posts
07-11-01

Mackdown, if you leave your door unlocked and then tell people you're going on vacation, and you come back and are robbed, that's a crime. Leaving your door unlocked is stupid, but stupidity is not a crime.

If stupidity was a crime, there would be less people playing Lineage :)

May 01, 2003 12:37 am ET (#58)

BigPope
LC Admin
622 posts
01-18-02

OhBoy
Your right 500m is probley wrong. Seeing that 50+ accounts from Paldo, Nash, FCA, and other Anti Alliance pledges got perm banned over using this exploit. My number must be wrong it has to be much higer. Seeing that one trip could get them about 50k and 50 people using teles to do this over and over in a 7 hour peirod. You calculate how much adena it could be.

Excon the fix is coming tomorrow. The fix has been on test for 7 days now. NC knew about it the problem. They labeled it a bug over a month ago in korea and fixed it there. While this is part NC's fault for not fixing it right away. Its more of the fault of the people that exploited the bug. Let them be punished for cheating and let us continue to play the game.

I myself think a penity rather then ban would have been better punishment for them. All of the characters that expoilted this bug should get their adena wiped, levels cut in 1/2, Stats all cut in 1/2 or reduced to 1(This was done once before), and all items 1/2 enchanted then they are. I think that would be a more suitalbe and depressing thing to have happen. I myself would rather be banned then to get on lineage one day and see my once 60+ charater level 30 with only -2x ac and a +4 tsu.

May 01, 2003 12:42 am ET (#59)

K-ZS-M
Loyal Fan
925 posts
05-04-02

watch what u say in the game

could get u banned

they're watching u

y from all ppl were they caught?
not cuz they were AA
cuz it was one of the highest lvl chars on the server talking with his friends who r lvl 50+
they always monitor the highest lvl chars on the server
like how Pr0 got banned, he being the first DK on the server for doing some wrongdoing
plus the wording is carefully looked upon
so they caught whitehand red handed and probably watched pandora carefully to see who else was doing it
wonder who their next target on dep is
CORPS maybe since she is lvl 60+
watch yourself everybody
for once it ain't bad to be a weak low lvl newbie

I think what was done was too harsh of a punishment
but I have no power to change that

Daos...lol...
all the no life losers got banned...rite?
u must be happy....sounds like how u would react haha

NoLuCK
just love pissing ppl off.....eh?
haha
I will be lvl 50 one day....

May 01, 2003 12:43 am ET (#60)

EX-CON
Loyal Fan
597 posts
03-19-02

noexit u forget this is a game and i aint talking about killing anyone or robbing u moron but if u walk into a store and ask for pricecheck and guy says
$8 but really is $7.50 the store wont charge u or stop u but nc decides to ban them when is nc fault u know how much money/time they wasted?

if tommorow u cant log on and says u bann i wonder what u do? i been permbann already my beta acc and i didnt like it back then i didnt care but if i was lvl 60+ u can bet i would stop it if it meant taking it personal.

May 01, 2003 12:50 am ET (#61)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

Amer, do you smell that? Something is burning! Yeowch, good one.

K-ZS-M,
I love telling the truth. I also love arguing. So yes, i like to piss people off. Thanks for noticing :)

Btw, your statement is pretty much bullshit. Many people before and after Pr0 were banned for the same reason as Pr0. You can pull his name out of your hat because he was such a high profile player. Nobody can remember the other people.

Don't assume the high level players are getting picked on. Realize that you will forget the low level players because they are forgettable.

May 01, 2003 12:58 am ET (#62)

BigPope
LC Admin
622 posts
01-18-02

Ex-Con here is the perfect example for you. Lets say you drive into The McDonalds, and order a bigmac. You then pay with a 5$ bill. When you get your change you get the change for a 20$ bill unstead of a 5$ bill. Even though you did nothing wrong at all, this is still considered stealing. It may have been the McDonalds guys fault for the mess up, but because you take it and don't say anything, your in fault as well.

In this example you do nothing you wouldnt do to just order a BigMac. And in the example that we have people banned for, they actually had to go out of their ways to exploit this bug.

I also think its crap that people have been saying that NC doesn't care about it 's cosutomres. Think about it. If you played on a server, and some people expoilted a bug and now have millions more adena then they should. Would you want them jacking up the ecconomy having to pay 2 mil for b-scrolls now just cus a few players that exploited a bug have the money to do it. NC cares about us, thats why they elminiated these problems characters. So that we dont get into a situation like this. If they unban them now, they will just let people know that they can find bugs exploit them and get away with it. I think its bullshit that you want to protect people that are trying to ruin the game by finding ways the make themselfs strong with praticaly no work. Then again, I bet these people were you friends, and if they didn't get caught you would have an extra 5 mil in your pocket right now. --;; This idea just makes me sick.

May 01, 2003 01:02 am ET (#63)

K-ZS-M
Loyal Fan
925 posts
05-04-02

we don't work for NC
so what really goes on?
I dunno....
they must be doing something sitting on their asses monitoring our servers..
probably alot of assholes sending them e-mails complaining about random shit
several ppl been banned before....which is quite obvious....
lots of unknown ppl I bet...
only reason I mention the high lvl ones is because they r the talk of the town
usually they got hated ones on their ass....
then whenever they can find the flaw...the lamer sends a report to NC to investigate it......
NC finds something, some action will probably be taken....
being in the spotlight isn't good.....
whatever.....
I didn't do the crime...
they did...
now we wait for NC to do any more action from this point now.....if any at all....
I rather be a nobody than a somebody on the server....
less ppl annoy u and hate u....and they'll evenually forget who u r so they leave u in peace...then u cause more chaos later...he he he

May 01, 2003 01:02 am ET (#64)

Bravehearts
Loyal Fan
2 posts
10-12-02

~.~

May 01, 2003 01:05 am ET (#65)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

EX-CON,
Exactly, this is a game. Quit trying to make more out of it. (Your example does not make sense and duping money means they are making extra money not paying extra money and making a run on sentence you moron.)

If you cannot follow the rules, don't play.

If you get caught breaking the rules, don't cry.

Alas, to NC this is business. Their lawyers approve thier TOS and EULA and I garuntee that NC is not responsible for stupid people causing themselves to be banned. Do you understand the words that are comming out of my mouth? If not I can continue to belittle you in front of your peers. Please take a lesson from Little Johnny:

A stranger was seated next to Little Johnny on the plane when
the the stranger turned to the Little Johnny and said, "Let's talk. I've
heard that flights will go quicker if you strike up a conversation with
your fellow passenger."

Little Johnny, who had just opened his book, closed it slowly,
and said to the stranger, "What would you like to discuss?" "Oh, I don't
know," ! said the stranger. "How about nuclear power?" "OK," said Little
Johnny. "That could be an interesting topic. But let me ask you a
question first. A horse, a cow, and a deer all eat grass. The same
stuff. Yet a deer excretes little pellets, while a cow turns out a flat
patty, and a horse produces clumps of dried grass. Why do you suppose
that is?"

"Jeez," said! the stranger. "I have no idea." "Well, then," said
Little Johnny, "How is it that you feel qualified to discuss nuclear
power when you don't know shit?"

May 01, 2003 01:11 am ET (#66)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

K-ZS-M,

Your point is valid. A high profile player has greater risk of getting caught when he breaks the rules. Let's leave it at that.

May 01, 2003 01:15 am ET (#67)

Anime
Loyal Fan
212 posts
12-25-02

....
i dont see the difference from thsi bug and when nc decided to increase the price of 2hs to store....
i remember when people use to sell 2hs for cheap and i found out early that 2hs to store would be worth 9k like a week later..
i stocked up on 2hs liek crazy and made a quick few million...
this was back in beta when there was no giran yet....
that 3 or 4mil i amde lasted me until zels were able to be sodl in store...
why wasn't i banned now..
but doing this now is bannable? they jsut arent using 2hs now but prats instead... -_-

May 01, 2003 01:20 am ET (#68)

Prince Drathen
Loyal Fan
223 posts
12-04-02

There's a test server for these things. NCSoft should've seen it coming. It's their fault. There's no other way of looking at it. TEST SERVER. That's what it's for. Testing. NCSoft messed up big. Doesn't matter if it's right or wrong, or if the EULA/TOS said it wasn't ok. NCSoft still messed up, and so did those who took advantage. But NCSoft needs to give us an apology. Get it into your heads.

May 01, 2003 01:21 am ET (#69)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

If someone is truely ignorant to breaking the rules I do not think he deserves to be banned. However, it does not change the fact that he should be banned.

May 01, 2003 01:23 am ET (#70)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

Anime,
No. What you describe is different.

May 01, 2003 01:26 am ET (#71)

BigPope
LC Admin
622 posts
01-18-02

NCsoft messed up. THe people that got banned messed up worse. Its not NCsoft that is banned, Its them. Thats like saying your shooting at cans on a fence. A cop accidently walks by while your reloading, and you shoot them. Its the cops damn fault for walking into the bullet, but your the one that broke the law. Theirfor your the one that gets punished. NCsoft knows that sometimes their are bugs in the game, thats why the TOS has the rules about exploiting bugs. So that players know if they find a bug, they must report it and not use it or they will get banned. As much as you try to argue, your just running in circles.

NCSoft is now cleaning up its mess. Doing just what you seem you want them to do.

May 01, 2003 01:32 am ET (#72)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

Prince Drathen,
Yes, as we know most people can predict the future. If NC could have forseen this happening they could have banned all those accounts when they were first created.

You do not think people should be responsible for their actions. How old are you? Does your mommy still dress you? Get it into YOUR head - NC did not grab those people by the hand, or invade their bodies, and force these players to break the rules. They broke the rules on their own. And for those of you who do not believe in free will; it was fate.

May 01, 2003 01:35 am ET (#73)

Bravehearts
Loyal Fan
2 posts
10-12-02

How is this a "Bug" when you guys posted it on the boards and tested it
>already and put it in live servers. I also don't see the reason of boosting
>up pandoras remove curse scroll prices will change anything when i don't
>think no one buys from there other than newlevel players. Some ppl bought
>oranges from the store and sold them to Oren Store when oren first came out
>and never got a warning or a Ban for it, and this was not an update that
>you guys pointed out. Therefore the oranges that were bought and sold was a
>"Bug". I have helped you guys report bugs such as "Bug in Bapho Room
>[Incident: 030324-000052]" which is a bug.
I never got a warning or suspended before as long as i remember. I don't
think a permanently ban should take place because you guys posted it up on
the website that prices changed and you can't blame us for being smart and
pointing out this selling remove curse scrolls to pandora as a bug. Also
there are "roll backs" for the server because this was recent. I say roll
back because "you guys" rolled back test server when this thing kinda happen
too but with the green potion and "you guys" roll it back when it's a
TESTING server.

and this is there reply:I'm sorry, but this decision is final. -_-;

May 01, 2003 01:36 am ET (#74)

Protocol
Loyal Fan
271 posts
03-26-02

-BigPope
"NC knew about it the problem. They labeled it a bug over a month ago in korea and fixed it there."

you said it yourself it was known for so long. So how come none of us were informed? If it was a problem, then it MUST have been exploited sumwhere right? So why couldn't they warn everyone on US SERVER before they put it in our game, instead of letting them figure it out ourselves and punish them? Why did they even bother to put it in if they KNEW the potential damage it can cause to others accounts? NC COULD have avoided this problem easily when they first put in this update, but its because of NC's staff that they don't and didn't that lead to this slaughter of good people.

BigPope i think u should get all facts straightend. I pretty sure it wasn't 500m they made if they STOPED after 1hr of doing it. This "exploit" really didn't make much and WASN'T worth the time, thats why they STOPED.

Think about it, if it made 500m in 1hr (the duration of the time they did around) why not do it all night and make +8-9ac sets? they could've easily bought and blown every single item being sold on chat with that kinda money in that short period of time.

May 01, 2003 01:37 am ET (#75)

Mackdown
Loyal Fan
175 posts
06-06-02

Amer I understand that, but thats because someone is searching my house after learning that I will not be there. To apply that to this situation, it would be like if NC said they were updating prices on certain things and then someone went out to look for what they were changing. In this special case though, NC told everyone exactly where to look and posted it on their website. They wonder why someone would try to benefit from it? It's human nature!!!!!!

May 01, 2003 01:40 am ET (#76)

Mackdown
Loyal Fan
175 posts
06-06-02

oh yea, NC telling everyone about it is stupid, but they can't really ban themselves!!!!!! They should do what everyone does when they make a mistake......

"DOH!"

May 01, 2003 01:41 am ET (#77)

Anime
Loyal Fan
212 posts
12-25-02

really all you've done NC is bann the most influencal players in Lineage
These people were rolemodels for some...
Friends with many...
Enemies with many...
they effect the whole lineage community if you are gunna bann them you can expect many others players to quit also...
These people are what makes the server fun... they produce wars and rivalries that have recently made dep server fun again.. now that many of the strong people are gone Dep server is back to how it was before... BORING...
i can see that in a few months dep will be around maybe 200people now once they see that wars/seige/fights just arent as fun without these rivals....

May 01, 2003 01:48 am ET (#78)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

Why do you think that people are so helpless. You determine your own fate. These people were banned for what they did, not who let them do it! The whole idea of there being a bug is IRRELEVANT. There are always bugs - but these bugs are not a problem if it is not for the people who exploit them.

May 01, 2003 01:49 am ET (#79)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

Anime,
Please scold the players not NC. These players banned themselves.

May 01, 2003 01:51 am ET (#80)

amer
LC Admin
864 posts
07-11-01

Anime:
NC doesn't care about "really all you've done NC is bann the most influencal players in Lineage". If they didn't ban them, then people would say "how come famous players get to commit crimes and we cannot?"

Bravehearts:
The difference between prat bug and OJ bug is prat bug people got caught :( In a perfect world, everyone gets caught and there are no bugs, but we live in an imperfect world and sometimes unfair decisions are made.

May 01, 2003 01:51 am ET (#81)

TheCollector
Loyal Fan
351 posts
09-07-02

Anime what you describe is different. maybe if 2hs sold in a store for 500a (what they actually used to be worth at one time) and you bought 1000 of them (and stored all that somehow, well... in beta you could have as many accts as you wanted i suppose ^^) knowing that you would be able to sell them later, that would be a little closer to this story, even though that scenario is still way off.

this was how the exploit worked: an n-prat sells in a non-pandora store for 100a. you can sell an n-prat to pandora for 100a. now a castle owner (mayor too?) goes and buys as many n-prat as they can hold (and that is alot), uses a btele/whatever to go to pandora, and sells them all. the result is 1)the buyer loses 1 btele (or 1 ntele if they have rotc). 2) whoever collects the taxes is rich as hell.

NC's fault? HELL YES! first of all, why in the heck did they increase the price of n-prat at pandora? what possibly were NC tryign to accomplish with such a thing? ppl should know by now that making prices different provides oppertunity for abuse.

as for the whole finger pointing between alliances, for god's sake grow up. i wont even get into the finger pointing its just not worth the energy anymore. at least nc is showing signs of security, too bad they do it selectively and not consistantly.

May 01, 2003 01:51 am ET (#82)

BigPope
LC Admin
622 posts
01-18-02

Bravehearts. You obviously wern't smart enough to know when to stop before you would get caught.

Protocol I could say I never commented on this issue but hell that isn't true. They have already expoilted a bug and cheated. Why should anyone believe when they said they stoped after 1 hour. I sure as hell dont believe them. I myself like to think of them leaving in a bug as a way to get rid of the stupid players in the game. Then again, we dont know if NC-Austin knew it was a bug, I only said that Korea knew of it.

We all know that other pledges have used cheats like this with oranges and oren. So why arn't they all banned? They did make a few extra million a lineage day, But they didn't make it so outstanding that it just screamed to ncsoft that something is wrong.

Just because its NC's fault not to fix the bug right away. Doesn't make it right to exploit it. I would like to point you to post #55, read that, it already explains this. Just because you can do something, doesnt mean you should do it. And they did know what they were doing was exploiting a bug, I dont believe that they are stupid enough to not believe that.

I just wish that people that played lineage had average intelligence, and not a IQ of 35 like it seems most of them have.

May 01, 2003 01:54 am ET (#83)

Protocol
Loyal Fan
271 posts
03-26-02

noluck, point is this "exploit" was known already and COULD have been prevented long time ago. But NC decided not to. Does that make sense in any way to you? that means that they could have PREVENTED it since it was well known already, and nobody should've had this chance of finding it because it SHOULD have been corrected during the TEST SERVER phrase which the point of it is to find out bugs/exploits and correct them BEFORE it goez to live servers.

May 01, 2003 02:01 am ET (#84)

BigPope
LC Admin
622 posts
01-18-02

I am not saying that its only one persons fault over this. And I think NCsoft knows that it is part their fault. Just like amer said, It is who gets caught that gets punished. And expoiting a bug is a lot easier to track down then buying/seling items, and sharing accounts. The last 2 are near impossible to prove that they do it. Even people saying things in game isn't real proof. I have said that I am someone else and not me just so I didn't have to talk to people before in lineage. Hell thats a good excuse if you do something completely stupid. It wasn't me, it was my buddy tim. It doesnt mean its true.

They can tell that these people bought mass ammount of scrolls, then teled to pandora and sold them. And they did this repeativly, or they wouldn't have got caught. Things like this are easy to track. Having different IP's could be playing from multiple spots. Being given an item for no reason could mean a guys giving out free items before he quits, or lending it to you. These things are harder to prove then something that they can look at their screens and see what you did excatly.

NC knows they messed up. Now they are doing their best to fix what they did is wrong. And get rid of the players the broke the rules. You break the rules, get caught you get punished. Thats the way life is. Just because its right infront of you on a silver platter doesn't mean you should take it and break a rule.

May 01, 2003 02:04 am ET (#85)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

Protocol,
Yup, it all makes sense. There are 3 things important to this conversation.
1. an exploit exists.
2. Using it results in being banned.
3. You choose whether to use it or not.

I know everyone is pissed off that their friends are gone. This is understandable. They are lucky to have such loyal friends. I am sorry that this happened, but I still love to argue to defend the truth.

I know that there was a BUG.. Everyone knows this now.. But the people involved had a moment where they could have chosen to do the right thing. This is the difference between the good and the bad. I admit, some people make mistakes, or make the wrong choice because they dont know better, but you cannot judge a person by what might be. The fact remains that the exploiters get banned because that is what happens to exploiters.

May 01, 2003 02:05 am ET (#86)

Daos
Loyal Fan
182 posts
05-31-02

K-Zs-M... you know me better than I know myself. Its scary :P

May 01, 2003 02:05 am ET (#87)

BigPope
LC Admin
622 posts
01-18-02

Protocol, The test server doesn't do its job if people dont find the bugs and report them their. Our test server is purposeless and should just be gotten rid of. Rarely is a bug discovered on test, and even rarer is it reported on test. I never said that NC-US knew of the bug. In order for them to know of it NC-Korea would have to tell them. And we have no proof that NC-Korea told them of it. So we have to assume that NC-US had no idea about it til it was expoilted. Unless you have proof like a e-mail from korea to us that shows they knew, we can't say that they did.

May 01, 2003 02:09 am ET (#88)

Daos
Loyal Fan
182 posts
05-31-02

And this is really sad.. ppl like Whitehand and Bravehearts are shells of their former selves lmao trying to argue that they didnt break the rules and they should have their accts back... daaaamn must suck but thats what you get when you mess with a company error for your own profit

May 01, 2003 02:12 am ET (#89)

Protocol
Loyal Fan
271 posts
03-26-02

"I myself like to think of them leaving in a bug as a way to get rid of the stupid players in the game."

lol if that was true there wouldn't be any lineage, everyone in this game would be too greedy. You would probably fall for it too, practically everyone would. With the economics of the game the way they are everyone would love to go the easy. Everyone has a darkside and at one time or another will give in to it. Can you honestly say you've done nothing to cheat this game? no lighthack, sharing, anything? i say about 90% of the servers has broken the TOS at one point or another.

What are the chances of sumeone exploited a "bug" if its been fixed already? 0% am i wrong? This "bug" should've been fixed during the TEST phase which i guess went so well.

I jus wish ppl would stop acting so big and be frank with themselves.

May 01, 2003 02:17 am ET (#90)

Raistleen
Loyal Fan
60 posts
05-16-02

hmmm, i have been off-lineage for a while now, and so i don't know this info first hand, maybe i'm off shot, but in my mind are some thoughts floating around:

- If the so-called exploit was there and nc passed it from test to live, it's supposed to be safe. Next time they'll ban people for using nature touch+b2s and winning lots of adena by not using pots...

- It seems to me that this whole affair is just like the "som quest going to be shafted" it was announced and people started hundreds of mages and did the quest just to have a few soms and sell them at higher prices when the som quest was shafted. Just a clever use of priviledged(not so) knowledge.

- Is it fair? well, i never found fair blaming someone else for your own mistakes, but people do it all the time, untill nobody wants to have bussiness with them.

I really hope nc backpedals and temp-bans thoose perm-bans, just for their own dignity as a support company. Anyways, i really really hope that lineage keeps up at least until i can return to game after the end of course :)

c'ya all!

May 01, 2003 02:22 am ET (#91)

Brutus
Loyal Fan
53 posts
10-12-02

400k was made from this and once they found out it effected the castle income they stopped, and if NC checked the logg's like they said they did they would of noticed the people told the other people that were doign it also to stop.
dep is garbage now i will cancel my accounts~ all my friends will do the same.
not like it will do alot but meh--

May 01, 2003 02:24 am ET (#92)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

Protocol,

I don't care about the people who would have done it but didn't mainly because it did not happen. We are only dealing with what did happen.

But asking me if I cheated in the game is merely a trick. If i say no, you may think I am lying. If I say yes, it gives NC reason to ban me. All I can say is I have no idea what you are talking about.

I am tired, and probably can not argue any longer this evening. I feel sorry for those of you who were banned, but I feel even worse for your friends who you have betrayed.

Take care all people who do not yet hate me. :)

May 01, 2003 02:25 am ET (#93)

amer
LC Admin
864 posts
07-11-01

Here's a something to think about:

NC banned people who cheated, made crazy money and admitted it in chat. Now how many people did it, made a little bit of money and DIDN'T admit it? Those people aren't going to be banned or even caught...

May 01, 2003 02:28 am ET (#94)

BigPope
LC Admin
622 posts
01-18-02

I do think that they should leave in some bugs to get rid of the stupid people. I myself have exploited bugs, I wont deny it. But I was smart enough to not do it to the point that I get caught. I think this is a good wake up call for people, knowing that if you get caught cheating you will get banned. Pr0 worked for awile, but it seems people got careless again. Maybe this time with 7 or so Dk's getting banned, with one being the highest on dep, will show people that they need to start worrying about getting caught again.

This is done. They arn't going to get unbanned, just like Pr0 didn't get unbanned. And a larger part of the community was against pr0's banning. Even Corps, the person that got the tsu stolen was against it. We should now accept the lose to the lineage community, learn to carefuller when we cheat, and get back to playing. What is done is done. Life goes on. I hope we all can remember this and have it set an example.

You should just be happy this isn't NC-Korea. When adena got duped in korea all people that even saw it in a trade window got banned. And I am sure some of this adena that they got is now curculating around in lineage. So lets just be happy that we didnt get banned for selling something to a player that did cheat.

But now you can no longer use the excuse of FL/SoL being cheaters as a reason to fight against them. I know that atleast 1 member from almost every AA pledge got banned over this, so atleast all of you had a cheater ammong you helping you. I also came to realize that though you lost about 150 characters to this, you guys still have more members all together then FL/SoL alliance so just keep fighting away and you will keep your castles.

May 01, 2003 02:30 am ET (#95)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

Brutus,

I have always trusted your words and if you say it was true I will believe that you think it was 400k. However, there were at least 80 accounts that have been banned from 3 large pledges; Nash, Paldo, and FCA. I find it hard to believe that only 400k was made.

Take care friend.

May 01, 2003 02:31 am ET (#96)

droidbuilder
Loyal Fan
63 posts
10-11-02

IN MY OPINION and just my opinion not anyone elses.

There is no victim here there is a problem though. On both parts (NC and the consumer) have both made great mistakes. On NC's behalf they posted the exploit on the site. Mistakes can be made though because no one is perfect. You cannot go your entire life without making a mistake because really we face mistakes everyday.

That day the monitor posted that information on the site it was a mistake, it probably shouldn't have been posted. NC did not intend to give a exploit to the players. They are a business, they are looking to make revenue not lose revenue.

On the consumers behalf a mistake was also made. Humans are said to be one of the most curious beings. Who doesn't want to know what is behind that door or who framed Roger Rabbit? But as they say sometimes curiousity killed the cat. When the many people exploited the bug it was because they didn't realize their actions and got to curious about it. The many were probably thinking about all the armor pieces and weapons they could buy. When it all comes down to it though we agreed in the ToS not to exploit any bugs.

The people who exploited the bug broke the rules and NC made a big mistake.

Do I think the punishment was fair?
Not really, I think the characters who did this should have been rolled back to before they exploited the bug.
Do I think players should take action against NC?
No, absolutely not. NC did post the information on their site but it was not known to them. The players broke the rules not NC.

Guys to swiftly end my post (which is making less and less sense to me because I can't believe everyones reaction to this topic) I'd like to say please stop the madness. NC screwed up and so did the players. It is just a game. Maybe those players that got banned now will go out and meet some new people, become good friends and then maybe end up going out or something. Maybe some of the people that got banned will go out and get jobs and they will make alot of money for their future but I don't know. Maybe some of them will sit in a corner and cry because they couldn't realize how stupid they were. It always seems sweet until it kicks in. This reminds me of the time my friends told me to jump out of the back of a bus with them. It was funny till my dad pointed out what could have happened. The bus driver could have jumped from the alarming sound and made the bus crash perhaps killing several people or something like that. No one realized that they could have got banned for exploiting a bug and now look what happened.

If any of my friends got banned from this I will say I miss you but I am very ashamed. You didn't think about your actions and it back fired. Please next time a oppertunity seems too sweet to be true occurs think for a moment.

May 01, 2003 02:35 am ET (#97)

Protocol
Loyal Fan
271 posts
03-26-02

pope you've got no idea how this effects the server. All thats left to say is

Dep Server End Dai~~~

May 01, 2003 02:39 am ET (#98)

BloodLusts
Loyal Fan
313 posts
01-26-02

All I have to say is... ok guys DEP SERVER IS GONA GET HELLAVA LOT BORING
Might as well stop playing now.. wasting your time.... wasting ur money..
and get ready for Lineage2. WHICH I KNOW will be like 100% way better then lineage1 for main reason... is that almost most of your friends that play lineage 1 will move to that and also that the friends that dont play lin1 who may have played lin1 if u stuck longer will move to lin2 SO FUC YOU LIN1 -__-
HELLO LIN2~!!!!!!!
REason to stop playing now is to save up some money to soup up your computer to some SEXY FAST KRAZY ASS Computer zzzz
LINEAGE 2 LINEAGE 2 LINEAGE 2 LINEAGE 2
Camon folks chant wit me
LINEAGE 2 LINEAGE 2 LINEAGE 2 LINEAGE 2

May 01, 2003 02:43 am ET (#99)

Aeon
LC Reporter
56 posts
04-25-02

Why is the focus on these "elite" players that got banned? Is that what the hoopla is all about? Because if it had been a bunch of n00bs that had done it, most everyone in here would be laughing their collective asses off about it. Especially the people acting so indignant about it. I think a perma ban was a bit harsh but we have no idea what other red flags were on these accounts. The fact that they are "elite" or an "inlfuence" or a "role model" is irrelevant in this situation. I don't think NC cares about that. They care to enforce the TOS and that is what they are doing. While I do feel bad for the people who just did what their Prince/ss told them to do.... I don't feel pity for the ones who were gloating about the "exploit" in the game. By talking about it in the game, they attracted attention to themselves. If they knew it was an "exploit" and they did it anyway, they are guilty of breaking the TOS. You reap what you sow... sure it sucks but no one forced them to use an exploit to gain an unfair advantage over the rest of the players.

May 01, 2003 02:47 am ET (#100)

BigPope
LC Admin
622 posts
01-18-02

Protocol If you remember like 7 months ago. The FL/SoL alliance owned everything. Fighting them seemed worthless. Now you guys own almost everything. The Server cycles, This time it didnt cycle on its own but had some help from NCSoft. Tomorrow is Giran seige, You guys can still put up a good fight and keep the castle if you try. Until tomorrow we wont know how badly it did effect the balance of dep.

As for the people that say the adena should just have been rolled back and not have them be banned, what kind of punishment is that? Atleast say something that would truely effect them. If the guys knew something was going wrong. They should have e-mailed support, Said that people in their pledge are expoilting bugs, and they dont want to be banned over it cus they just wanted to test it to see if it was true. But then again, who would turn on their own pledge, I wouldn't.

May 01, 2003 02:49 am ET (#101)

Fedor
Loyal Fan
2 posts
10-12-02

First of all let me say this.
L-amer: get a life, arent you the guy who cries when someone takes amer on test server? NCI said that THE price of the PRATS are being changed, how did they cheat when everything is in the game? and bigdope, there is a big diffirence between the real world and lineage, maybe when you get out of your moms basement you will see this kid. Also no NCI employe show their face in Toronto, kiss kiss L amer

May 01, 2003 02:52 am ET (#102)

BigPope
LC Admin
622 posts
01-18-02

Aeon what you miss is that about 40 some lower level accs did get banned. And no one is focusing on them. It seems they only care about the DK's and not the little people that got banned. No one is focusing on them. I bet the players that got banned for this exploit that are low levels feel even worse then the high levels because no one seems to care if they get banned or not. They might not have been 50+ but they sure as hell were just as dedecated to their pledge as the 50+'s and I am sure just as dedecated to their characters. The worse part is I bet the lower levels didn't even get to taste the adena they cheated to get. Poor guys.

May 01, 2003 02:53 am ET (#103)

Protocol
Loyal Fan
271 posts
03-26-02

and with the sudden bursts of new DKs on AA side you'd notice how it overwhelmed sol/gf... those dks were great leaders as well that led to the downfall of alliance. It's gunna be the same story you jus told if SoL/Gf so chooses it to be with AA being weaker again. AA's spirit took a turn for the worse now. GL to everyone that continues to play.

May 01, 2003 03:05 am ET (#104)

Shah
Loyal Fan
87 posts
06-10-02

Anyone has any idea why NC raised the price of that particular item in that particular place to start with? what was the reason they felt prat price should be raised on TI. Something doesnt add up here!

May 01, 2003 03:06 am ET (#105)

BigPope
LC Admin
622 posts
01-18-02

Fedor, yes their is a big difference, game-life, game-life, but both have set rules. Rules that when you break you get punished. Life = jail, game = ban. Their is a rule that expoilting a bug = ban. They knew it was a bug, it is know that they even have called it exploiting a bug in pledge chat. They knew they were breaking the rules. They just hoped not to get caught. The reason why NCsoft has a TOS and Rules of Agreement is so that the things that get done in the game that are their and they dont want, can be pusnished for.

As for me living in me mums basement, most kids seem to do that before they graduate from highschool.

Fedor, you must be one of these 35 IQ people. First my moniker is BigPope. Insulting people on their own site isn't a smart thing to do. I dont plan on deleting your comment, I hope that people that read it see how completely idiotic you are.

I just hate to argue with stupid people, Please, Please, have something inteligent to say before you try and argue with me.

May 01, 2003 03:08 am ET (#106)

Substance
Loyal Fan
186 posts
09-25-02

lol
all comments are someone what essays..--;

May 01, 2003 03:10 am ET (#107)

OhBoy
Loyal Fan
35 posts
02-18-03

bigpope...unless you have the numbers...you have nothing to say on how many people were banned or how much money the castle made

and nc is lazy ass with their website...i bet you they had this info way before they updated their site.

people are not mad because high level chars were banned...they are mad because of how nc deals with its customers. they completely ignore users sharing and using the oren oj potion thing...and dont think nc has a hard time finding out who shares. they have chat logs...not hard. my friend was hacked...when he sent and email to nc they replied "its clear you were sharing accounts blah blah.."

even though sharing is in violation of TOS they do not care.
nc has sent me emails saying they will not ban a person for sharing..even though its against the tos

this is why people are mad. nc has double standards. ban some, dont ban others. using the same type of thing.

the potion buy/sell went on for 2+ months. this prat thing...not even one day.

now tell me who made more money?

what about the fi ticket thing? gonna ban everyone who use that too? i hope so...have to be fair right? zero tolerance. thats what they said.

May 01, 2003 03:18 am ET (#108)

Punk4Life
Loyal Fan
33 posts
09-30-02

Well to all you who blame people on the test server.... u can make enough money on test not to have to do things like that... wouldn't even be worth it,

with tax how much were prats selling to store?? and how much were they @ pandora??

May 01, 2003 03:24 am ET (#109)

Prince Drathen
Loyal Fan
223 posts
12-04-02

NoLuCK, you forget that this is a game. People play to have fun. The people amassing Adena didn't hurt anyone. It doesn't matter if they were banned or not. NCSoft could've handled the situation a number of different ways, and they chose to go with a bad one. You don't need to be so bitter. You were not banned. If you're so disgruntled with the game (Your posts reek of it) and its "cheating" players, why are you still hanging around? By your mentality, everyone who tries to rob a bank in real-life should be given the death sentence. Does that make any sense? Are you just going to turn this around like you do to everyone who responds to you? You should just stop while you're behind.

Was anyone on Test, Ken Rauhel, or Lands Of Aden banned?

You are all taking this far too seriously. If this was still going on, I could see why, but it's over now. NCSoft doesn't need to be banning any number of its small user base. Furthermore, I don't think anyone knows how many accounts were actually banned. And if even one person got away with it, I guess there's nothing anyone can do, is there?

May 01, 2003 03:25 am ET (#110)

amer
LC Admin
864 posts
07-11-01

fedorK: "NCI said that THE price of the PRATS are being changed, how did they cheat when everything is in the game?"
Because they said on CHAT that they were cheating. If they didn't think they were cheating, they shouldn't have said that they were. I feel bad that your friends were banned, but don't take it out on me, I didn't ban anyone. Go learn some anger management.

Drathen: People on LoA were banned (they posted on Templar). No one from Ken has come forward to admit being banned.

May 01, 2003 03:29 am ET (#111)

Prince Drathen
Loyal Fan
223 posts
12-04-02

Amer, did they use the word cheating, or did they say something like, "This is a way to make a lot of Adena," or "I'll get rich because of this." To a lot of people, something like this would not be considered a bug. I'll bet someone just said "Hey, you make Adena by doing this and this."

What NCSoft should've done was delete all the Adena on the accounts of the abusers. But they can never put simple solutions like that into effect from some reason.

I don't see how this is any different from the situation on LoA where jewels went back to full price. People who had been saving the commonly dropped jewels made out like bandits. They were warned that they were going to go back to full price. They could've hunted all week before the update and had hundreds of jewels. Should they have been banned for selling the jewels to an NPC?

May 01, 2003 03:29 am ET (#112)

natlswim
Loyal Fan
148 posts
04-10-02

why was this considered a bug in the first place?
they publicly anounced an update on a price.
you guys are talking about who is the real guilty person, or when it's both NC's fault and the players fault. but IMOP, I'd think if they tell us that this price has changed, and don't take the initiative to tell us it's a bug(even after they found out), I wouldn't consider it a bug.

weren't they even going to add a 'trade' feature where you buy one item and sell it for more at another place?

edit: ok, by the time I posted this Amer had posted:"Because they said on CHAT that they were cheating"

more understandable now

May 01, 2003 03:36 am ET (#113)

amer
LC Admin
864 posts
07-11-01

Drathen: From the discussions on the forums (as well as just some common sense about laws), intent is a big factor in determining punishment. If you kill someone by accident, you don't get as serious of a punishment as if you kill someone on purpose. If you stab someone 76 times, that's different if you stabbed them once.

As NC has said on the forums, they did whatever investigation they did for the OJ/tax exploit and that's how the guilty parties were identified. We can infer that the OJ exploit did not involve in-game discussion of exploitation and the n-prat exploit did, which is why there were mass bannings for the latter and not the former.

Exact words? I don't know. Perma-ban implies it was pretty incriminating.

May 01, 2003 03:36 am ET (#114)

BigPope
LC Admin
622 posts
01-18-02

OhBoy Linweb is a very useful tool. Go experment and maybe you will learn a few things.

May 01, 2003 04:28 am ET (#115)

Mackdown
Loyal Fan
175 posts
06-06-02

Well maybe if everyone really did cancel their acc payments, NC would get scared outta their pants and unban everyone...Remember the last time they got so scared they removed the exp-nerf update? lol that was funny...

May 01, 2003 04:36 am ET (#116)

flexy24k
Loyal Fan
215 posts
12-10-02

Oh well. Maybe next time when people decide to cheat they wont go around bragging about it.
Think of it this way... How many ojs can 1 person carry at a time? How many scrolls can 1 person carry at a time? Multiply this by how many people were buying and selling prats. Ummmmmmm, thats a whole lot of bling bling!!!
The majority of the people doing this knew they were doing something wrong/sneaky/illegal/underhanded... And the thing that really gets me is that most of the high lvl players that got banned are already filthy rich! And don't try to tell me they're not.
I'm not trying to pass judgment on anyone cuz that's not my job. But these people knew they were doing wrong and they admitted it in chat.
If an atm machine starts spitting out $20 bills and u take them, that's still stealing. ITS STATED CLEARLY IN THE TOS that taking advantage of exploits will get U banned. I have nothing personal against any of the people that got banned. But I do think they were very irresponsible with what they did, and should be ashamed that they brought some of their friends down with them.
If people are gonna quit over this then quit already and stop complaining. More mops for me!!! Most of my closest in game friends have already quit for different reasons. But i continue to strive to accomplish my goals. I miss them, but t hat's not gonna stop me from playing and making new friends. The people that got banned should remake their chars and start over! Have ur friends help U lvl! j/k. Although the only way NC can prove that U have multi users is if U tell them U got hacked by someone U gave ur password to.
Anyways, maybe the punishment didnt fit the crime. But, a crime was committed. Therefore punishment should be handed out. And I'm glad they didn't roll back the server, cuz last rollback I got cheated out of a b-zel... Innocent players would have suffered for the wrong doings of others.....

Thats just my 2 cents.

~K~

May 01, 2003 04:55 am ET (#117)

flexy24k
Loyal Fan
215 posts
12-10-02

I think this says it all:

Responce from: Rock (NCInteractive Staff)

http://boards.lineage-us.com/cgi-bi...=5&o=7&part=all

We investigate every situation like this, and take action when there is evidence to support wrongdoing. We investigated past situations and found no evidence to take action.

In this case, we investigated this instance and found GROSS violations by a few people numbering in the hundreds of thousands, one case even over a million scrolls. We also have chat logs showing clear intent to exploit the issue as well.

We only removed people that actually exploited this situation, no innocent people have been removed as a result of this investigation. All involved parties have been contacted directly.

Rock
NCInteractive - Customer Support

For all of U defending the peeps that got banned, I just found this on a TG forum...

May 01, 2003 06:09 am ET (#118)

Rathorn
Loyal Fan
59 posts
10-28-02

#117, I just want to point out that OF COURSE they were able to quickly buy/sell hundreds of thousands of scrolls. The things only have like 1 weight. A more useful claim by NC would say something like "so and so made X trips back and forth" The number of trips and time spent should be used to determine what IS and what is NOT a "GROSS" violation. A lot of the people banned only made a few trips back and forth before their conscious got to them. Not everyone had this malicious intent to amass millions of adena. Many of them heard what was going on and tried it briefly to experiment with it.

Whitehand told us all that Heine castle made 400k from doing this. Which IMHO isn't much anyway. But what hasn't been said yet is the fact that WW castle (owned by Paldo) only made 19k from this. The only person that would know EXACTLY how much more was gained was Aerith; who happens to be a very good friend of mine. Aerith made one trip to pandora, and the other paldo members involved did not make many more. Aerith and Kannabis stopped everyone from continuing because they felt it was wrong. Unfortunately, they didn't stop it before it began. "To err is human," should we really punish everyone that makes a mistake by giving them the lineage equivalent to capital punishment? There are much better ways of teaching people not to do something than by making examples of anyone and everyone that experimented with something.

The way I see it, both parties (NC and the players) made mistakes. Of course, NC cannot be punished for making a mistake, but the players can.

Oh, and by the way, I wrote to NC and all I got were 2 replies that basically said "Thanks for your feedback, but we don't give a shyt what you have to say." NC is just SO damn good at customer satisfaction...

May 01, 2003 06:17 am ET (#119)

Orcide
Loyal Fan
162 posts
10-05-01

Well they used a bug, they got cought, deal with the consequeses.

Even a 5 year old with an IQ at 5 could see that this wasnt right.

They just thought, hey cool lets make some money and not tell anyone else becouse this is just for us.... yes, it was just for you, now u know what happens when you exploid...

Doesnt matter if NCI put this in by accident or not, you exploided it.

Some of us who work hard on stuff (like me) doesnt like some of those goofballs to destroy what we have made by cheating there way to better stuff.

May 01, 2003 06:26 am ET (#120)

LawfuI
Loyal Fan
1 posts
10-16-02

Rock, the manager of NC, stated that there is a case that million scrolls were "re-sell" by a snigle character, have you guys ever think what impact it can cause to the economy on dep???

I do agree to ban those guys if they are doing that voluntary...

WILL YOU EXPECT IT IS LEAGAL TO EARN that HUGE AMOUNT IN A NITE?

And I wonder why people didnt realize it is a very serious offense..
I played over 2 yrs and my property not even worth more than 50m... those gang can make many Millions in a nite. It it fair?

May 01, 2003 06:56 am ET (#121)

SirStryfe
Loyal Fan
3 posts
02-03-03

Well I heard about this from a friend who didn't really explain it well. I though "What a stupid reason to get banned." Now that I have read all of these posts I see why they did. Exploiting a bug is grounds for banning. We all agreed to that when we signed up. True that sharing accounts is against TOS, however if one of the people sharing your account exploits then you both get banned. The fact of the matter is that they broke a rule, and because of that they were banned.

As said earlier, there were lower level people involved in this as well but you don't see anyone complaining about them. Who cares that high levels were banned. Since they were higher levels they should have known better than to exploit this bug. Although it is sad to see such well known players get banned it is after all their own fault.

I am personally glad to see that NC does not show favortism toward higher level characters. NC also is sticking to there guns on there descision to keep these players perm-ban. If they give in and let them back what have they learned? If I was exploiting and got banned, yes I would be mad, but in the end who can I blame but myself. I was the one who willingly broke the rules and for that I would have to accept what ever happened. I hope those who were banned realize that they can blame noone but themselves.

Dep has recovered from several huge blows in the past and this will not end activity on Dep. As always there will be new people to step up and take the places of those who are now gone.

May 01, 2003 07:06 am ET (#122)

cavalera
Loyal Fan
9 posts
10-12-02

My opinion, NC Austin's programmers are just too slow or have too little power to publish new content to the game fast, if they would have been able to instantly change their bad mathematics and set the price of prat at pandora to a more smart price this thing wouldn't have happend. Ok, some players 'used' it, but why shouldn't they, it's something NC has put in the game with their full awareness. Full awareness. And then it's called a 'bug' or an 'exploit'? NC should punish their programmers for this, or their content managers, whatever they are called. I would have also said this if the players weren't high level, as a matter of fact i never spoke to one of the players that got banned. But the fact is that everyone could have just walked in this trap...

Bye!!

May 01, 2003 07:14 am ET (#123)

TheCollector
Loyal Fan
351 posts
09-07-02

most of you are arguing about the wrong reason why so many ppl are angry. its total bullshit the things i have seen others get away with in the past, like speedhacks (that is NOT hard to find, if a fucking monitor would get off his/her sorry ass and WATCH someone walk), the account sharing (cant detect with IPs? gimme a break damnit i can't teleport in real life from a pc cafe in toronto to sweden [you know who(m) you are].) you get the point, so now all of a sudden ppl do something and get banned for it. they either have to enforce ALL of their goddamn rules or nothing at all, in-between pick-and-choose is hypocracy.

May 01, 2003 07:23 am ET (#124)

xbushmanx
Loyal Fan
posts
04-07-03

ummmm wouldnt it have been easier to either strip these players of their monyes earned or had a server reset ??? i mena is nci alergic to making money ???

May 01, 2003 07:33 am ET (#125)

NuB
Loyal Fan
10 posts
11-06-02

Yes NC has a testing server, most ppl know about it, if you dont hey we have a testing server. But imho, dep server was getting to polotical....A and AA, wtf is that. who cares about them. oh i should i was in DOM. oj/oren never heard about it, funny though i was on with most of the pledge until aden update running RW(roger wilco); oh and if that is an offense, sorry didnt know) in the back ground and not once was that mentioned. So kudos to those that didnt get caught(shhhh be very very quiet, im violating TOS, *elmor fudd laugh*), and a big *haha* to those that got caught, duh the rabbit runs if you make noise george.

As for the testing server, uh noone would, cared, or thought about the mi-nute amount they could make off pandora when adena/drops are increased on the test server anyway. Besides it seems to be a race to 50 here lately. If they run across bugs they report them, if they dont then they didnt. Not everyone can say test server doesnt test, who's to say if aden wasnt stable update it would have made it to live servers had it not been run through test?

oh well i think ive regened by now, pretty sure of it being #121 as i type, back to the game.

May 01, 2003 07:51 am ET (#126)

kwiver
Loyal Fan
106 posts
04-07-02

an example my friend made: The goverment puts up a speed limit sign of 120 km/h in a area were you know you should only be allowed to drive 50. If you drive faster then 50 and get your license revoked and a fine from here till the end of the frigging year, would that be a fair punishment. Or is it there own frigging fault and you should drag there ass to court.

May 01, 2003 08:11 am ET (#127)

cavalera
Loyal Fan
9 posts
10-12-02

Good example Kwiver...

May 01, 2003 08:21 am ET (#128)

Dominius
Loyal Fan
24 posts
05-01-03

Yeah, you're smart bigpope...
80 people banned and 500million, was that it? stfu you moron >.<

All i have to say, if this is right, then ban ALL the people that have ever used the FI boat-ticket exploit, THEN i would be ok with it.

Amer, you have to admit, if they now have a zero tolerance policy with permabans coming that is the only thing that could happen next unless they revert the bannings.

And you also keep saying that they made crazy amounts of adena. Are you really sure about that? Are you then calling all the pepople that actually know and have said what they made on it liars? If you don't know I would humbly suggest you didn't assume...

May 01, 2003 08:40 am ET (#129)

Ertai
Loyal Fan
10 posts
10-23-02

The fact its that if u know there is a bug and u exploit it u deserve ban.
If those guys informed nci about the bug instead of making insane money from it they would be playing right now. :(
And Dominus, Leilo said on lineage forums that they were unbalancing lineage economy so, its clear that they were made 2xx millions or so. Cuz 100k dosnt unbalance economy u know.

May 01, 2003 09:02 am ET (#130)

kwiver
Loyal Fan
106 posts
04-07-02

the money is still ingame tho i think

May 01, 2003 09:11 am ET (#131)

Dominius
Loyal Fan
24 posts
05-01-03

Exploiting the tax-system can be seen as unbalancing the economy even if it's just by a little. The balance NC wanted gets broken by NC making ways to generate tax through trading an apple for an apple.

And sure, ban cheaters, but don't just ban these cheaters!

EVERYONE EVER USED THE FI BOAT TICKET TRICK SHOULD JUST SHUT UP RIGHT NOW CAUSE IF YOU SUPPORT NC YOU SHOULD BE BANNED TOO!!!

Think for one second, zero tolerance selectively applied is horrid, I actually label all that support it utter morons, sorry about that.

May 01, 2003 09:22 am ET (#132)

Injektilo
Loyal Fan
34 posts
12-26-02

not gonna beat a deadhorse, but shit..

if they're gonna get one side and ignore another.. its ridiculous. thy have nough ecidence to ban so many more. it makes this banning quite unjust.

May 01, 2003 09:25 am ET (#133)

SomewhereIBelong
Loyal Fan
posts
04-25-03

lol as i wake up and read this, my day starts with a cheerful laugh
way to go nc
soon we have to pay 30$ a month, cuz no one will play ur stoopid servers ja

May 01, 2003 10:46 am ET (#134)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

Prince Drathen,
You said, "People play to have fun." I play to have fun. These people were not playing, they were cheating to have fun. Very different.

"The people amassing Adena didn't hurt anyone. It doesn't matter if they were banned or not." Maybe some of them were not going to hurt players. Buf if you know anything about Paldo and FCA you will know that they love to kill newbies just for fun. Nash never really were problems, they were just there and played. But you know what is funny, people like SharpArrows who cause all sorts of fun problems did not use this stupid exploit because he knew it would have gotten him banned. Use some judgement people.

Banning these players will not hurt the game. The game would be hurt more by allowing exploits! This game will live on as things move into 3d. I probably will not move to Lineage 2 as it will not be at all like Lineage.

May 01, 2003 12:30 pm ET (#135)

lol123
Loyal Fan
90 posts
03-12-02

Wow, its been awhile whats up amer :).. anyhoo..i dont know the whole store and there is too many post for me to read(i'm lazy) anyhow from what i hear people got banned for taking advantage of some bug getting more in tax return. What i dont understand if everyone knew it was a problem(so called bug) even NC knew why didnt they fix it? Instead of banning anyone they should have fixed it along time ago. The game and service seems to be all messed up in MY opinion. But what does it matter.

May 01, 2003 12:41 pm ET (#136)

BloodLusts
Loyal Fan
313 posts
01-26-02

What do you guys have to say about the FI boat ticket going up and down the ladder bug.......
everyone that goes to FI does it
A/AA alike
so if these guys are gona get banned for the exploitin of a bug that was similar
to the 2hs update and the oj/oren update and the gem update
then you might aswell ban the whole server since im sure 70% of the server
has used that bug and have exploited it...
so plz for the ppl who make the next few comments
keep in mind that if you have used this bug for the FI boat trick..
you shouldnt say much...

May 01, 2003 01:02 pm ET (#137)

iNTOtHEnIGHT
Loyal Fan
10 posts
11-22-02

Well the end result wont change it usually never does, there banned. Game over ^.^, Dep will be less fun without those people for sure, im kinda sad that they did this cuz now there gone. But who would really wanna play a game thats not fair ? i sure wouldnt want to play with billionaires buying everything.I do hope to see them make a comeback in lineage2, even if nc banned me i would still try to play the game if i could. How can u say no to lineage T.T.

May 01, 2003 01:05 pm ET (#138)

amer
LC Admin
864 posts
07-11-01

"Amer, you have to admit, if they now have a zero tolerance policy with permabans"
They never said their policy was zero tolerance with permabans. They said zero tolerance and people are not permanently banned, at first. I support giving people a second chance and I think NC does too..

May 01, 2003 01:14 pm ET (#139)

Weathersmurf
Loyal Fan
2 posts
05-01-03

I have to agree it's not a bug, by definition. A bug is "a defect in the code or routine of a program." The program worked as intended. The update, which they intentionally put in, worked as intended. If it were a bug, I'd agree with those saying the banned were in the wrong. However, it's NOT, which changes everything.

NC Austin lets people abuse bugs, but they ban those who don't? They refuse to ban reported account sharers, but ban the (at the time) highest level player for "account sharing"? (On the Korean servers, people do more than play with their brother. This is a natural, harmless thing resulting from humans being community animals with the ability to cooperate and use teamwork to help each other. There, it's not a crime--afaik, only damaging things, such as cracking into servers, are considered crimes. That is as it should be. But here?)

This is a very interesting (IMO) read: http://www.legendmud.org/raph/gaming/playerrights.html

Personally, on a selfish level, I was relieved--if I want to make it to the top, some of my main competition is gone. Again, on a selfish level, I'm afraid--do I have to worry every time I level up? NC Austin seems awfully ban-happy regarding some higher level players. When will it be my turn to be scapegoated? And on the moral, rational level, I'm outraged; I don't feel angry as an emotion, but I realize this is a gross violation of ethics. And understanding truth can be far more powerful than being motivated by emotion.

May 01, 2003 01:15 pm ET (#140)

Fedor
Loyal Fan
2 posts
10-12-02

amer: NC will never unBAN an account, they are pricks and they know it, those morons turned something good into something bad, I bet Ncsoft korea wouldve done a much better job handling the us costumer base [i am too immature to post anything without being crass]

May 01, 2003 01:35 pm ET (#142)

kjnormand
Loyal Fan
31 posts
10-17-02

kind of makes u think....is this the first time these ppls have ever used such an exploit to make money.... I think not. Wasnt it said that the only ones permanant ban were the ones that had prior offenses. All i can say is....i hope u enjoyed ur lineage time, its obvious u took it for granted, now it is gone. Welcome to the real world, a lot of times the punishment is harsh for the crime, but thats not something we nonguilty ppls have to deal with. And as far as all u ppls that are crying to not bann them get over it. I didnt see them telling u about an easy way to make money when they found it, yea (sarcastic tone) they deserve ur support..... Get ur own life, stop worrying about others.

May 01, 2003 01:40 pm ET (#143)

Schwartz
Loyal Fan
134 posts
02-08-02

It seems to me that the impact on the economy cannot possibly be fixed by these bannings...

I would think a server roll-back of 12 hours or whatever is needed should also be considered. Oh... AND the people who participated in exploiting this bug (or who heard about it in chat but didn't report it) should be banned.

Bannings aside, this situation has drastically impacted the economy and though it sucks bigtime for the players who have no idea what has been happening while they were out busily leveling and working hard to earn money, it is necessary.

Server Rollback and Let the Bannings Continue.

May 01, 2003 01:48 pm ET (#144)

IRA
Loyal Fan
73 posts
07-07-02

All i can say is that I feel pitty for thouse stupid people who think that NC cares about SoL vs AA thing. that is incredubly stupid but not more than that imbesil who thinks SoL has a high level character working inside NC... I'm stunned to such idiots

May 01, 2003 01:49 pm ET (#145)

Weathersmurf
Loyal Fan
2 posts
05-01-03

Boohoo, one pledge got 400k adena, one got, what, 16k? THE ECONOMY IS RUINED!

It's not a bug. People shouldn't be banned for NOT exploiting a bug.

May 01, 2003 01:50 pm ET (#146)

OhBoy
Loyal Fan
35 posts
02-18-03

i can honestly say i have never had any prior infractions on my account.
i was not in a pledge, i did this for 5 minutes. i stood to make no money from this. i logged out and went to sleep. i did not buy scrolls in the 6000 or 7000+ range.

i did not call it a cheat or exploit in wisper...

its funny how some people think its all about the characters...again, people are mad at nc for selectivly enforcing the TOS.

i guess nc's logic is...its not a crime if you dont get caught.

most people here too right? bigpope.

May 01, 2003 01:54 pm ET (#147)

Kaerid
LC Reporter
46 posts
09-06-02

"What do you guys have to say about the FI boat ticket going up and down the ladder bug.......
everyone that goes to FI does it"

hmmm... i don't - so it ain't quite "everyone," now is it? Of course, I don't know what the exploit is, but if you use it, and have not reported it, you should be banned (I don't like playing with cheaters...)

May 01, 2003 02:05 pm ET (#149)

dunti
Loyal Fan
19 posts
10-23-02

hmm, for those of us less informed, what was the FI ticket bug.

also, the only thing that matters is that those people knew it was a bug.

End of story. nothing else matters, not past bugs or hacks, nothing. If you know its wrong, then don't do it.

If you don't like it, don't play. In fact that is the only way NC austin will listen to you. Get your whole pledge/pledges to cancel their account for 2 or 3 months. You'll get NC attention then.

I just read the whole LC forum on the matter(136 post so far), Amer/Bigpope: a couple of those post really should be deleted, I mean what does questioning the NC staff sexually have to do with the issue.

May 01, 2003 02:10 pm ET (#150)

amer
LC Admin
864 posts
07-11-01

Please don't discuss how to do exploits here, I will be forced to delete the posts.

dunti - email me with the post IDs, I found one and "altered" it.

May 01, 2003 02:11 pm ET (#151)

Pesh
Loyal Fan
21 posts
10-16-02

U cant really call it cheat or a hack, But shouldn't be called a good idea either.

Good judgement comes from expeirence
Experience comes from bad judgement.

>.<

I have a lovely bunch of coconuts

May 01, 2003 02:12 pm ET (#152)

Kandice
Loyal Fan
3 posts
10-15-02

I dont like SOL, or GF they are bunch of scum bags and they all use hacks and bugs, and NC take the time to investigate EVERYTHING, not only that ure eye seems to glance at, for that sol/gf should be banned.

For this what these people did who got banned, served them right, i dont wana hunt 6 hours a day and make 100k while u make 500 mil in 2 days.. b.s.

Great Job NC, but however please look into other things like what SOL members are doing as well.

May 01, 2003 02:18 pm ET (#153)

juggalo
Loyal Fan
53 posts
10-21-02

lol dont let them fool you its all just a big powr trip on ncs part thay wanted to prove thay could still ban anyone thay wanted for any reaon thay wanted so thay picked out the highest profile characters and banned them.NC is full of a bunch of power hungry teenagers.this would be the secound time thay banned the highest lvl character in the game for no apperant reason.thay really need to get some new people thay are all quite useless in my opinion.all thay do is ban thay dont ever help anyone unless thay are afraid to lose alot of money. look how long it took for them to replace exp when it was there servers screwing up thay had to let every one die 7-8 times before thay thought hmm maby we should replace so thay dont quit.nc needs to get people who know how to do there damn jobs captstrum,leilo and rock are all useless in my opinion.there jobs are to help people not give computer generated answers that dont answer a damn thing.

May 01, 2003 02:22 pm ET (#154)

juggalo
Loyal Fan
53 posts
10-21-02

oh and kandice thay didnt make 500mil thay made 400k in giran and 19k in ww hell i can make 19k in less time then it took them to get it in taxes.thay didnt do it for long thay were just curious nc anounced it just to ban people y else would thay say it before thay did it if it was a bug that could be exploited. someone from paldo prolly pked one of there characters and thay got all upset and hit the mass ban button. how pathetic

May 01, 2003 02:28 pm ET (#155)

Weathersmurf
Loyal Fan
2 posts
05-01-03

#149 -

It doesn't matter what the victims thought it was. Objectively, the TRUTH is that it was NOT a bug.

#150 -

Why will you be forced to delete them?

#151 -

I dunno, harmless experimenting to satisfy curiousity doesn't seem like such a bad idea to me.

#152 -

I don't want someone else to have better items than me...that's bs! Ban everyone with better items than I do! Great reasoning.

#153 -

I think it's more likely that they're old farts than teens. Just the numbers of probability.

May 01, 2003 02:29 pm ET (#156)

Xiled
Loyal Fan
29 posts
11-12-02

BigPope: "Your right 500m is probley wrong. Seeing that 50+ accounts from Paldo, Nash, FCA, and other Anti Alliance pledges got perm banned over using this exploit. My number must be wrong it has to be much higer. Seeing that one trip could get them about 50k and 50 people using teles to do this over and over in a 7 hour peirod. You calculate how much adena it could be."

I must admit... you are an imbecile.

And who from FCA got banned, since you know everything?

Did you know.. the castles have a max income per 4 hour period? no.. because you're a newb.

Did you know.. you will never be close to as strong as any of the Paldo people banned? maybe not, boasting about your 35 iq Q_Q

Did you know.. anything? o.o

probably not~ zip it sport.

May 01, 2003 02:52 pm ET (#157)

Injektilo
Loyal Fan
34 posts
12-26-02

wareagle was banned.

this IS NOT cheating. compare this to a game of cards. NC was holding their dealt cards backwards.. it's not the person across the tables fault for looking at NC's stupidity.

if i would've known about the price difference, i would have done it too!
AFTERALL.. WASNT NC PUTTING A MERCHANT FEATURE IN THE GAME ANYWAY?

May 01, 2003 03:08 pm ET (#158)

amer
LC Admin
864 posts
07-11-01

Weathersmurf:
"It doesn't matter what the victims thought it was. Objectively, the TRUTH is that it was NOT a bug."
Because the intent matters when judging punishment. If it was an accident, that's a lesser crime than if it was done maliciously and on purpose.

"Why will you be forced to delete them?"
Because if I knowingly allow posts about exploits to stay on LC, I am violating rule #18 of the terms of service by spreading an exploit.

"I dunno, harmless experimenting to satisfy curiousity doesn't seem like such a bad idea to me."
True. But harmful experimenting is.

May 01, 2003 03:08 pm ET (#159)

Puertorico
Loyal Fan
3 posts
01-29-03

BigPope: "Your right 500m is probley wrong. Seeing that 50+ accounts from Paldo, Nash, FCA, and other Anti Alliance pledges got perm banned over using this exploit. My number must be wrong it has to be much higer. Seeing that one trip could get them about 50k and 50 people using teles to do this over and over in a 7 hour peirod. You calculate how much adena it could be."

So since you know everything as well, who in NASH got Banned??? No one to my knowledge and how do I know this? I AM IN NASH!! You have proven to me that you know $hit about this.

NC screwed up big time here and I dont think many ppl disagree except some of you. If you look at the majority of the server comments they disagree with this. Hell, even some SOL and Alliance Members agree that NC should not have gone this far so what the hell does that tell you?

I hope NC un-screws this quick because I reuly think that many ppl will leave the game.

May 01, 2003 03:11 pm ET (#160)

K-ZS-M
Loyal Fan
925 posts
05-04-02

what a discussion.....
I think NC is concerned about bugs that help ppl gain more cash
not save cash
so stop mentioning ticket bug
saved me over millions since I go there so often
they might actually fix that
wonder if such things happened in korea too
cuz whatever bugs we get
Korean servers had first and either fix it or never know about it

May 01, 2003 03:21 pm ET (#161)

amer
LC Admin
864 posts
07-11-01

Puertorico: BigPope looked on LinWeb to see which members of those pledges had "unavailable information" which he assumed meant they've been banned (from the timing).

I just checked the "NashEternal" pledge and these players are "unavailable." Obviously, there is no reason WHY they are unavailable (maybe they quit, maybe they just are taking a break), I'm just giving you his data (so don't shoot the messenger ^^): AKMA, BaboBupSa, BravestElf, Felther, FlyMolo, Suisasha.

May 01, 2003 03:26 pm ET (#162)

K-ZS-M
Loyal Fan
925 posts
05-04-02

kinda wish the bug was still here
I got 1000+ scrolls in my storage
I want my 100 000+ adena
get so many scrolls from FV and DVC
no castle is making profit from scrolls I gotten from mops and selling
so that ain't no crime....

May 01, 2003 03:36 pm ET (#163)

Haleft
Loyal Fan
53 posts
10-18-02

I think its time to move from Dep to LoA server...
Permanent ban is unfair coz they dont get a warning 1st
and i consider that it is not a cheat, or bug,it is just an NC tremendous mistake setting game issues (we all still HATE the teleport bug near iron gate entrance)
Otherwise, a lot of ppl make money on real life by the same way ^^

May 01, 2003 03:37 pm ET (#164)

aupairKing
Loyal Fan
320 posts
03-11-02

#139 " A bug is "a defect in the code or routine of a program." "

It is also bad business rules and improper validation and poor testing and........etc.

Where did you get this piss poor definition?

May 01, 2003 03:38 pm ET (#165)

aupairKing
Loyal Fan
320 posts
03-11-02

Amer, is this the most active thread you have ever had or what?

Come on people, lets get it over 200 posts!!!!

W00T!!!

May 01, 2003 04:03 pm ET (#166)

BigPope
LC Admin
622 posts
01-18-02

ElvenBlaze
Norns
Pinchy
SpoiltOne
Vordack
XxDaBombxX
AaronHead

Xiled maybe i will never be as strong as them. But I will always remember the month period when their DK's didnt hunt when I was on. The 3 times they tried to take FV castle from FL and give it to us so that we would stop attacking kent. I will aways remember those days. And I will always look down on paldo for that.

My list of nash is quite a bit larger. Most posibly that all these are just expired accounts but I doubt it. Most likely Most of them are 2/3rd characters of the stronger names.

SpikeFiend
SirConKnight
Seiyaryu
NighTraiN
ElvenThug
Discarded
CH1MER1A
Z0RBIS
TriJeT
THESARGE
Tarceth
Rarptior
Perkyness
Mostasteless
MaximusMo
Legotheelf
JiJonMuYin
Jibberish
FluidG
Falthador
ElfSahara
Duganhimer
DiscoBiscuit
Admantium
Psyanide
MrBiggs
Kedawen
DrakSaix
YellowRuby
JinSama
Drearnmer
Dreamrner

May 01, 2003 04:12 pm ET (#167)

BigPope
LC Admin
622 posts
01-18-02

Xiled, would you like to tell me what the cap is at? Because me being a newbie would like to know what it is. Its always nice to know this information. Expectially when according to Korea NCSoft their is no cap on income for a castle. We should send them a e-mail saying is bug on us server with a cap on income so it can get fixed.

May 01, 2003 04:15 pm ET (#168)

Dominius
Loyal Fan
24 posts
05-01-03

LuckyStrike is my mage and is on an account that has expired, no ban there, and I bet that's the case for many of the others too if that is how you determined who was banned. Remeber, prince that has taken the alliance-quest can have MANY members, they don't need to boot people that is taking breaks for example.

May 01, 2003 04:25 pm ET (#169)

amer
LC Admin
864 posts
07-11-01

Dominius: Well, if many of the accounts are just expired, then that could be a good explanation. Personally, the thought that over 50 people were banned from Dep is not very satisfying.

May 01, 2003 04:32 pm ET (#170)

BigPope
LC Admin
622 posts
01-18-02

It is posssible that all of those names are just expired accounts but highly unlikely if you ask me.

May 01, 2003 04:54 pm ET (#171)

Dominius
Loyal Fan
24 posts
05-01-03

I think mainly Paldo was banned, and some select few from other affiliations. Kanna said it himself, he ordered all the paldo people to do it, so that's probably where you'll find the banned ones.

I don't think any, at least not many FCA/Nash would do this thing, I know for sure I have done nothing but fight besides them, not helping like this.

-Vassago

May 01, 2003 06:35 pm ET (#172)

TheCollector
Loyal Fan
351 posts
09-07-02

that isnt entirely correct dominius. alot of paldo came to DOM for the ww siege the other night and couldnt go back, so they are with DOM for the time being.

May 01, 2003 06:46 pm ET (#173)

Kaerid
LC Reporter
46 posts
09-06-02

K-ZS-M: "so stop mentioning ticket bug
saved me over millions since I go there so often
they might actually fix that"

They better damn well fix it. If I have to pay 10k to go there, you should too, ya frickin' cheater...

May 01, 2003 06:59 pm ET (#174)

K-ZS-M
Loyal Fan
925 posts
05-04-02

that will just make ppl not go there as often
as long as they don't fix the AI of group mops
I'm happy
cuz how else will I be able to 1v1 mops
if I gotta fight the whole group at the same time, waste tons of pots
I'm sure many know how to make them stupid as well
not very difficult
same with iq clones

May 01, 2003 07:10 pm ET (#175)

americorps
Loyal Fan
36 posts
01-16-03

Amer:

I can see why there are many different ways to view what has happened, but what I would like to hear from you is that NC should have handled it differently. It has clearly become a PR nightmare. Tons of people are mad, communication is inconsistant (To prove that, I point to the fact that NC says repeated they will not discuss any in-game action nor will they discuss any particulars in a ban, yet post both the specifics of why the ban occured and how often some people participated...they break their own damn rules). The problem is not that NC doesn't enforce the rule for all people at all times because that would be impossible. The problem is that NC enforces that same rule differenlty all the time at their own whim creating a blantent sense of dis-trust and disrespect with their customers. They know of account sharers who were not banned. They knew of the oj exploit and niether banned nor even warned. They know of the FI boat bug and have done nothing. I can also point two very specific instance that proves to me that they just don't use any standards or logic when dolling out justice. I know of 2 noobs who thought it would be fun to bring mops to town (these are two seperate noobs in two seperate instances) Neither realized it was against the tos and neither had any prior offenses. Both were caught and one was give a 3 day ban and the other a perm ban. There was no conjoining factors like cursing or other offenses. NC simply does not have the right people doing the job. They don't have the maturity to handle this part of running an on-ling game. They either don't understand why or they don't understand how to apply standards when administering justice. That means they are not doing their job and should be re-trained or replaced.

I made a mistake and got a 3-day ban, not from the incident, but from cursing about it on the boards. I think that is perfectly fair and do not complain about that. I knowingly broke the rules, i don't have any prior offenses and am both willing and deserving to pay this price. But I have no doubt if I had pissed off the right person on the wrong day, I could have just as easily been perma-banned or on another day I could have just gottan a chat ban or on another day I could have just gottan a board ban or on another day I could have just gotten a warning and on another day I would have just gotten an edit. How can you stand by NC when they have that sort of mentality about justice?

May 01, 2003 07:27 pm ET (#176)

demonicarrow
Loyal Fan
10 posts
10-13-02

LINEAGE 2 LINEAGE 2 LINEAGE 2 ::chanting::

May 01, 2003 07:29 pm ET (#177)

amer
LC Admin
864 posts
07-11-01

americorps:
If NC catches someone violating the TOS, I think they should consider intent, damage and history when deciding what to do. NC says they did that, and the cards fell where they did. I have repeatedly asked for some assistance in demonstrating to NC that they did not follow their own policy, but everyone says "you're stupid for asking." Fine, I'm stupid for asking, but I'm not going to blindly listen to people who don't even TRY to help me show NC the err of their ways, if those errors even exist.

What would I have done if I was NC? I would have confiscated the money made, given a 1 month tempban to all involved, divided the level of all players who did it knowing it was a bug (by admitting it in game) by 2 and permanently banned anyone who had a prior offense. I think NC was much nicer than me.

I would have also considered a rollback depending on the damage done to Dep.

May 01, 2003 07:41 pm ET (#178)

Elric
Loyal Fan
337 posts
10-29-02

they deserve it

May 01, 2003 07:47 pm ET (#179)

Kaerid
LC Reporter
46 posts
09-06-02

NC Support: "Please be advised that we are indeed aware of the issue with the Forgotten Island boat tickets and have been working on a resolution, and this issue should be resolved with today's publish."

May 01, 2003 08:06 pm ET (#180)

Crackerman
Loyal Fan
34 posts
11-12-02

Vordack is in Iraq.
Pinchy's account ran out.
Norn's account ran out.
Aaronhead's account ran out.

Hope this clears up 4 BigPope.

May 01, 2003 08:32 pm ET (#181)

illphil
Loyal Fan
55 posts
10-13-02

Perma ban w/o even a warning...pfft, lame, I would hardly even call this a "bug" or and "Exploit".

Did anyone who bought and sold oj's at a different location to increase castle tax income ever get banned??????

May 01, 2003 08:40 pm ET (#182)

BigPope
LC Admin
622 posts
01-18-02

Its done and over with. If their was a way to go back in time and stop this from happening I am sure it would be done. But I have yet to see NCSoft get reverse a permaban. All I can say is quit if your going to quit. Don't try and get ncsoft to ban you too. Thats just stupid

If you were banned. My advice is to e-mail ncsoft and ask for forgiveness. Maybe you will get premission to play lineage again. Hopefully you will be able to play other ncsoft games without knowing they will ban you when they find out you were banend from lineage. You will never get your accounts but you should still do it if you ever plan on playing another online ncsoft game.

May 01, 2003 08:55 pm ET (#183)

americorps
Loyal Fan
36 posts
01-16-03

I have given you true life examples about two similar players in the same situation where on arbitrarily got a 3 day ban while the other got a perm ban. I have been told by a friend that he pointed you to evidence about account sharing that NC has but the players are still playing. I never said you were stupid for asking for proof, I gave it to you. If someone else said that to you, please don't take being upset about that out on me. I can add more, while i still stand by that I was baned for 3 days legitmately for cursing at NC, I have had no priors, I have seen others responding to the same-sex threads that made blatent homophobic remarks and that is a clear violation of two parts of the tos and they only received an edit, no warning and no ban.

I have now proved to you that NC is unprofessional and willy nilly at despensing justice. What do you have to show me that I am wrong. How can you look at all the dissent over how this was handled and think they managed this well? Im floored honestly.

You never once responded to what I said in my post. The pr problems and the inconsistancies with how NC manages ALL problems, not just this one. Perhaps this is NC's attempt to become more dilegent and even handed, but their communications skills, their pr skill are lacking.

May 01, 2003 09:05 pm ET (#184)

BigPope
LC Admin
622 posts
01-18-02

Trying to piss off NCsoft is not the way to get people unbanned. They will want to keep then ban if the response is so negitive. Hell, If I was them and the comunity was acting the way it was, Even if some of them deserved to be unbanned, I would keep them banned because of the way the rest of the game acted. The only way I even see NCSoft being willing to unban a perma ban char is if you guys nicely talk to them. Not spam how to exploit bugs on their forms, swear at them, Demand things, threaten to quit, and just cause chaos. That won't make them say "Hey, we were wrong, lets fix it." If you guys kindly asked for them to be unbanned, and the people that got banned apolygized then you might actually see a positive reponse by NCSoft. But most of you are acting like children and because of that you are making things even worse then they would be.

May 01, 2003 09:09 pm ET (#185)

Weathersmurf
Loyal Fan
2 posts
05-01-03

#158 - amer

There IS NO punishment when there IS NO CRIME. You can't punish people based on intent for NOT CHEATING. It's like if someone who never used a gift certificate before is given one, wonders if it's fake cash, and tries using it to see if it's accepted. You can't say YOU THOUGHT YOU WERE TRYING CASH FRAUD and arrest them for legally using a gift certificate.

Geez. How many times must it be said?

Firstly, it's not the ToS, it's the rules of conduct.

Secondly, it's not a bug exploit, therefore it does not apply.

Thirdly, if someone were to post a bug, they would be the ones violating the rules of conduct, not you.

So in conclusion, you're lying.

How were they to know it's harmful? Do you really think they could make insane amounts of adena and keep it? From my experience, most people aren't that stupid.

#160 - K-ZS-M

So you're saying they're discriminating...if I save 100k from one bug, that's fine, but if I exploit something deliberately put into the game for 2k, I'm banned forever.

#164 - aupairKing

I got this very adequate and widely accepted definition from the dictionary. If you want to call a cat a dog, or deliberate coding a bug, go argue with the dictionary until you're blue in the face for all I care.

#175 - americorps

*I* wasn't aware that bringing mops to town is breaking any rules. Please tell exactly where that is...!

#184 - BigPope

"Even if some of them deserved to be unbanned, I would keep them banned because of the way the rest of the game acted."

This proves that when in a position of administrative power, you would abuse your tools and punish people for no relevant reason. You are present in a position of adminstrative power. Do you see where I'm going? Am I the only one concerned about this?

"acting like children"...you mean being honest and straightforward?

May 01, 2003 09:44 pm ET (#186)

SpysLikeUs
Loyal Fan
89 posts
03-04-02

Does anyone think they will ever have a Ban "amnesty" now that so many players are gone? I mean, 300 on Dep during evenings? That's pathetic. My friend was sharing 2 accounts with his girlfriend, some a-hole ratted on them, and got the account with all his best stuff banned. So he did not renew his second account either. NCSoft's gonna Ban themselves outta business soon! I agree banning from this exploit was total BS. They should have cancelled future castle taxes for a month just to screw the Prince's who would lose their followers when they have squatt to pay them and their castle up keep with.

Hell, if NCSoft Austin had half a brain between them, they could have made an event out of it! say that Aden's NPC's are pissed at everyone for explioting the tax system, so they are keeping all other Castle taxes and will take back Aden and be 3 times harder to kill during the Month of May. That's how I would have handled it if I were GM.

May 01, 2003 09:53 pm ET (#187)

Silverself
Loyal Fan
posts
01-25-03

Confused!! .......... G/L to all who were banned. I hope I will see you on Lineage2...... O B T W I too would have used the bug if i had known about it. Glad I didn't know. Confused!!

May 01, 2003 10:04 pm ET (#188)

Foo
Loyal Fan
43 posts
11-19-02

yet another example of shoddy public relations by NC -_-

May 01, 2003 10:19 pm ET (#189)

amer
LC Admin
864 posts
07-11-01

Weathersmurf:
No one believes it was not a crime. Not the numerous people who have been banned that I've spoken to, not the people who disagree with me on lineage.com. Can you please point me to some example of someone who was permanently banned who says they didn't do anything wrong? Everyone admits they were caught cheating.

"Firstly, it's not the ToS, it's the rules of conduct."
Okay, I misspoke, it's in the Rule of Conduct. We agreed to that, just the same. It doesn't change anything.

"Secondly, it's not a bug exploit, therefore it does not apply."
Says you. Unless you are one of the people who were banned, no one really cares what your position is on it over at NC. NC says it was a bug exploit. The people banned say it was a bug exploit. Again, show me someone who thinks they did nothing wrong. In all the hours and pages of discussion, I have not seen a single person come forward and say "I had no idea it was cheating!" get permanently banned.

"Thirdly, if someone were to post a bug, they would be the ones violating the rules of conduct, not you."
Fine. I'm glad that you wouldn't think of it as my fault. It's not a risk I'm willing to take, and I want no part of it. Figure it out on your own, like the rest of us.

"So in conclusion, you're lying."
lol! Yep, I'm a liar. Why bother even talking about anything with me?

americorps:
You gave me two examples in the form of a one line story with no details on when, the characters, which monsters, what happened, the consequences, who lost experience, the other parties involved, the logs with NC, the emails. I mean you gave me nothing? You think that's sufficient? You wonder why no one can demonstrate to NC that there is unfairness? Because no one is willing to take the time to form a case against them. I've taken "people's word for it" and been burnt. I feel your posts are thoughtful and intelligent, but I don't know you from Adam, and I'm not just going to "take your word for it." Prove it to me. You have proved nothing so far, but you have my attention.

You want specific responses, here I'll pick apart your post:
"They know of account sharers who were not banned"
They do? Show me an example. I have seen posts where NC has said "we will investigate and take appropriate action." How is it that you know investigation found sharing and action was not taken? I get emails in my LC inbox asking me to help them get unbanned because they were caught sharing, but they're nice people. So, as far as I know, people are getting banned for sharing. So, why would I think differently?

"They knew of the oj exploit and niether banned nor even warned."
They said that they investigated the OJ exploit and that they couldn't find any wrongdoing. The only thing you can criticize them for is that the tools they use to investigate are clearly insufficient. I have said so on the lineage.com forums, I say so here.

"They know of the FI boat bug and have done nothing"
It was posted on the forums that this will not be an issue any more and the fix has occurred in today's publish.

"I have seen others responding to the same-sex threads that made blatent homophobic remarks and that is a clear violation of two parts of the tos and they only received an edit, no warning and no ban."
No ban from lineage.com, or no ban from the forums. This *by far* is the easiest of anything to prove and take up with NC. Show me the edited post and the fact that the offender was posting immediately afterwards with no interruption. I frequently take screenshots of people making offensive remarks and global and NC has *always* taken action immediately upon receipt of my complaint.

"How can you look at all the dissent"
People are taking up the following positions (1) permanent ban was too harsh on first offense (2) NC is inconsistent with their administration of justice (3) if you get caught cheating, then it sucks to be you. I think they are all very very valid points, that doesn't mean I'm going to sit here and repeat them or withhold my own thoughts because people disagree.

The only thing I agree with NC on is that they should punish people they catch. I don't expect them to catch everyone, I don't expect everyone to be honest. However, if they DO catch someone and we find out about it, I expect action. So do you. The only disagreement we have is (a) are they fair and (b) is the punishment harsh. For (b) I think on first offense, permanent ban is too harsh and against the stated policy. I already disagree with NC there. For (a) I'm open to. Please prove it to me. Everyone keeps telling me they have proven to me and of all the "I've proven it to you and you won't listen" I have a *single* email from Jory which actually HAS PROOF of NC doing anything remotely suspicious.

I'm not NC. I'm a guy who plays a game for fun, just like you. I have no financial interest, no one to answer to and no weird rules to follow which prevent me from talking about the real issues. Stop mistaking my "cheaters should be punished viewpoint" and "prove it to me" arguments as "NC did the right thing." I listen. I answer. I can be convinced, I'm not sure what I can do, but when I believe in something, I try to make a difference. LC should be a testament to that.

May 01, 2003 10:37 pm ET (#190)

Daos
Loyal Fan
182 posts
05-31-02

I thinnk I need to say something here... GET A F***ING LIFE. You all seem to forget that NC can run THEIR game any way they want and if you don't like it then f***ing leave and spare us adults from your childish whining...

May 01, 2003 10:48 pm ET (#191)

Weathersmurf
Loyal Fan
2 posts
05-01-03

#189 - amer

"No one believes it was not a crime." Over at Templar forums, try Rathorn, Mutushi, iLLPHiL, MrBlonde, rokkyboy (yes, Whitehand), Jory, Nennius, myself...but I guess all of us are "no one."

Frankly it doesn't matter what opinions are; the facts are it was not a bug.

I think NC doesn't care about any customer's thoughts, or objective truth. They sure don't act like it. I guess you haven't looked very hard.

Most mbs and such have a disclaimer or whatever, saying they are not responsible for the posts of individual users.

I bother because I'm bored. Actually, I wouldn't bother PMing with you; however, others may see this and find it of some use or entertainment.

Do the character names or mop types really matter?

#190 - Daos

You all seem to forget that your country's government can run THEIR country any way they want and if you don't like being arrested without a warrant and imprisoned without trial you can try to apply for refugee status and spare us honest, rational kids from your "I'm apathetic so that makes me so kewl" old fart whining (about whining...how ironic).

May 01, 2003 10:48 pm ET (#192)

EX-CON
Loyal Fan
597 posts
03-19-02

zzzzzzzz iam paldo 4 life but i didnt get banned :D me,xdapun,neo,changbogo,pasqueflower,geforce4 and some others didnt prob cause we wasnt on at the time yet now i dont got a family/pledge paldo isnt just a pledge most of know each other in rl.

and if yall wanna say any shit later ill clear it up iam 1user,idont use hacks like gf and some of paldo(o.O) and dont use bigs cause i dont know of em and cause i always have global off cause its pointless to listen to all the bullcrap that ppl say on global like witz other day told me bro melfor to come fight and melfor is way stronger witz drops +6yumi's lol i come to watch detect 6 sol? and then melfor venz to bbk and witz says melfor venz well bitch u the weak one that cant 1v1 zzzz ill end u when u alone :D

watch me out for 50 btw melfor and many many more quit but i aint letting nc win.

iam do it for paldosanae i been here since of server and will leave at end (la)

btw i only got prob with the newbs from sol as iam concerned all the peeps in sol cept the leader are newbs that drop +6 weps. those are the ones i hate that talk shit cause they 10 vs1 and make someone venz then u 1vs1 and they tele and u got 6dks on u.

peace no more waste time on this site or global just straight power lvling

Knight: con: ********* lvl 49

May 01, 2003 10:56 pm ET (#193)

TCUB3D
Loyal Fan
118 posts
11-06-02

You honestly dont sound like an adult there...(just making a point).
(to daos)

May 01, 2003 11:09 pm ET (#194)

Protocol
Loyal Fan
271 posts
03-26-02

tcub3d where u at >.<!

May 01, 2003 11:22 pm ET (#195)

amer
LC Admin
864 posts
07-11-01

Here are some quotes:

rokkyboy: "after going to lineagecompendium and realizing they are fixing in 7 hours than i realized it was a bug"
Jory: "Afterwards when I am looking at all this I realize I should have known better"

I don't know why it matters if Rathorn or Mutushi think it was a bug. I respect their opinions, but they didn't exploit the bug.. So, obviously, their "intent" is to just play some Lineage.

As for the other players, you're right, they think it's not a bug. I can make a few new forum accounts with some fake names and say it's not a bug too, if you like. We can have a whole army of "it's not a bug." But it only matters if you knowingly exploit a bug, everyone is free to have an opinion.

Now that I know you think this whole situation is a joke for your boredom, I won't reply to you any more. Our friends were banned from a game. People we spend hours a day talking to and playing with. You think it's just some junk to joke around with so people can see that you're rude to other people? Please grow up. We're trying to discuss if NC's policies are unfair or not, not trying to make you laugh for a prank. Don't bother replying, I won't respond to you now that I know you're just kidding around to get your jollies.

May 01, 2003 11:36 pm ET (#196)

Weathersmurf
Loyal Fan
2 posts
05-01-03

#195 - amer

Learning new information or hindsight about judgment does not change whether they thought it was wrong at the time. If NC says "This is a bug, we're fixing it" you may well think "Oh, NC thinks it's a bug." If NC bans you, you may later think "Oh, I should have known NC are a bunch of lying morons." That does not mean they comitted any crime, and those are not confessions.

It doesn't matter, except that you brought it up by saying "No one believes it was not a crime." I was just showing that plenty of people do believe it.

The thing is opinions are subjective. Universal truths are objective. And the truth is it's not a bug, no matter what OPINIONS anyone may have. The whole world can think 3 + 2 = 19, but it doesn't make it objectively true.

You know wrongly. I never said it's a joke, I never said it's for my boredom, I never said your friends weren't banned, I never said it's just some junk, I never said it's so people can see I'm rude...YOU are the one who came up with all that. Says a lot about your mind, doesn't it... I'd rather not grow up. Grown-ups generally have no fun, are malicious, are selfish, think it's kewl to be cynical and arrogant, are close-minded, are filled with prejudices, etc...so I'll stay an immature, honest, open-minded, reasonable person :D

You know that libel isn't very ethical either? Tsk tsk. And no matter what my motives are, the truth is still the truth. (If most people believed 2 + 3 = 19 and one person decided to piss off the rest by insisting it's actually 5, does that mean he's wrong?)

May 01, 2003 11:51 pm ET (#197)

OhBoy
Loyal Fan
35 posts
02-18-03

amer

nc always posts its bug fixes like this

- Fixed a bug where xxx....etc

nc updates thier game like this

- This NPC now xxx....etc

the pandora thing was in the update list...not "Fixed bug" list

just like how you can sell beserker axes and whatnot when oren and werldern came out. the people who read about it first bought all the 2hs and b-axe and stored them so they can sell them later to make a profit off them. how is this so different?

May 02, 2003 12:04 am ET (#198)

Kill you
Loyal Fan
46 posts
04-09-02

sorry for off topic question but anyone know where to download Ragnorok online? The main site's downloads dont work.. and i tried many others but they are all down. And is it still in beta testing?

May 02, 2003 12:24 am ET (#199)

amer
LC Admin
864 posts
07-11-01

Weathersmurf:
Fine, let's put aside the meta-argument of "are you arguing for arguments sake or for your personal entertainment". If you are being genuine, I believe you.

"Learning new information or hindsight about judgment does not change whether they thought it was wrong at the time."
Agreed. However, how are you so sure what they thought at the time? If they said in chat "I think I found a bug with the new update" does that not mean they knew at the time that something was afoot? NC says they reviewed chat logs and that's what they used to judge action. Are we assuming that NC is lying? Don't get defensive, I'm not saying NC is as clean as snow. I just want to know what our basic assumptions are.

OhBoy/Weathersmurf:
I think it's a valid opinion to ponder if it's a new feature of the tax system. It is ambiguous. But at how much adena per minute do we say "now, wait a minute - how is it that the rest of the game is set up that we have to earn adena, but here it's a no-risk, only limited by your speed" situation?

Here's a hypothetical so I can try and understand your viewpoint: If they posted that "Pandora's nprat price changed" and intended for the change to be that she sells at 300, but buys at 100, and instead had it so she bought at 300 and sold at 100 (got it backwards) so that people could make 200a per scroll, without even owning a castle - is that (to you) a bug or an intended feature of the game?

Now, again, don't get mad, I am just curious about if you think anything on the live servers that is announced, regardless of if the implementation matches the intention of the announcement is a bug. I'm not saying NC is blameless and we just totally abused them and they are totally guilt free. NC screwed up, I think no one, not even NC, disagrees with that.

"so I'll stay an immature, honest, open-minded, reasonable person"
I don't want to get into a debate about your personality, because I don't know you, and equally, you don't know me and well, it's irrelevant and will descend into personal attacks which I'll have to delete. But I do want to say if hypothetically a person called themself open-minded in the sentence immediately after a closed-minded stereotype is interesting, don't you agree?

May 02, 2003 12:38 am ET (#200)

TrendKill
Loyal Fan
94 posts
10-23-02

AMER,

Many first offenders were banned. Look here:
http://boards.lineage-us.com/cgi-bin/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=Discussions&Number=351320&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=7&part=

May 02, 2003 12:42 am ET (#201)

amer
LC Admin
864 posts
07-11-01

Thanks, TrendKill. I posted my reply. :(

May 02, 2003 12:46 am ET (#202)

BigPope
LC Admin
622 posts
01-18-02

Weathersmurf we have already been through this on what is and what isnt a bug.

According to dictionary.com A Bug is An unwanted and unintended property of a program or piece of hardware, esp. one that causes it to malfunction.

Now lets take what little facts we know about this situation.
1. NCsoft raised the prices of scrolls
2. NCsoft made a patch that changed the price again. Went through Korea to US Test.
3. Paldo noticed they could buy and sell scrolls for same price.
4. Whitehand saw the change was coming soon to dep. Decided to expoilt it while he still could.
5. Lots of teleporting and buy/selling of scrolls
6. NCSoft finds out and bans the people that did it.

So now lets ask ourselfs, did NCSoft intend to make it so you can buy sell scrolls for same price. The answer is blatantly no. Thats why they changed made a patch after they noticed it could be done. People that expoilted the bug and got banned even called it expoilting a bug. They knew the fix was on its way. How can you not call it a bug. It fits the defention pefectly.

I call it a bug.
NCsoft calls it a bug.
The people that did it call it a bug. You should reread some of rokkboy's posts, because he called it a bug in the only one I read.

If the people at templar dont agree thats expected. Templar seems to have been made to be a place to post libel about NCSoft. If you talk to quest you can clearly see he hates NCSoft. Just like most the people on Templar. They just hate NCSoft so ofcource they are going to take the oppisite view of them.

Everyone that was directly involved calls it a bug, both the banners and the bannies. And someone that wasn't involved at all, me, calls it a bug too.

As for my comment. I stick by it, If you act childish your going to get childish punishments. I never said that anyone banned didn't do anything wrong. But maybe some dont deserve permabans because they were told to do it by their prince, and were only complying with a order. Whitehand did say he did it a few times then started to tell people not too, I dont know if its true or not, but I don't think he should get perm banned if he did that. But because everyone is acting out like shit throwing monkeys at the zoo, why would ncsoft even think about being kind and giving them a lesser penaty then they got at first. Because of us, they now have 10 times the clean up to do then they would of had to do if we all acted responsably about this. If we didn't give them so many posts to edit and delete, then they would of had some time when they could have looked over the characters one more time to see if they didn't deserve a perm ban.

Also awile back amer said that rule 18 was in the TOS, and you said no It was in the rules of conduct. Amer said that he admits he was wrong and you were right. But you are both right. The rules of conduct is a part of the TOS you must agree to, to agree to the TOS, so they are now part of the TOS.

As for the Idea of putting a disclamer on the site about the posts of the users dont have anything to do with us. That really doesn't work, we currently plan on staying a part of the NCSoft offical fansites. And a part of that is that no illegal content can be on our site. Be it us that put it their, or some user or even a hacker. If we know its their we must remove it. Until we decide to stop being an offical fansite, we will comply with the rules of being one and not look the other way when such things get posted.

I have said this like 30 times before and now I will say it again. If you cheat, and you get caught, your going to get punished. If NCSoft believes you cheated, and you dont think so, your still going to get punished. NCSoft can ban a person just because its sunny outside. They dont need a reason to ban you. But making money but using something in the game that is unintended to be in the game, also called a bug, is a reason that I view to be a bannable offense.

May 02, 2003 01:05 am ET (#204)

Protocol
Loyal Fan
271 posts
03-26-02

BigPope
"4. Whitehand saw the change was coming soon to dep. Decided to expoilt it while he still could."

whitehand went to LC AFTER i repeat, AFTER he did it and discovered it was going to be fixed. I think ur reasources aren't all entirely dependable if you only take in 1 side. But i understand ur position.

forgive me if i not making much sense today, its been a hard day

May 02, 2003 02:18 am ET (#205)

K-ZS-M
Loyal Fan
925 posts
05-04-02

all the ppl banned r either:
1. fight NC to obtain their accounts back
2. create another account under a different credit card and start over again
3. play off their friend's account and maybe power lvl a char to lvl 50+ (may be against the rules, but NC has shown that they don't care unless u complain that u were hacked or such, which is a good thing for our sake)
4. quit and never go back to an evil world NC controls

the true friends of the ppl banned
will probably follow the same route their friend goes

if it is a serious bug
they should fix it right away
they think ppl won't take advantage
dumb NC, they must think we're dumbasses to not take advantage
whatever
this has been mentioned already
the crime was done, but the punishment was too harsh
what can we really do...

May 02, 2003 02:45 am ET (#206)

Weathersmurf
Loyal Fan
2 posts
05-01-03

#199 - amer

Ok, I make a comment about my motivations, you make up a whole lot more to add to it, when I point out you said them and not me you say you believe me...I'm flattered. But fine =P

I'd rather believe the people than NC Austin's blanket statements. NC never said exactly what was said afaik. They may well have decided that innocent experimentation will be judged as worthy of a permaban. They wouldn't be lying--they just wouldn't be telling us their standards.

If they got it backward, that would be a bug. The prices were not as intended to be, and what they wanted in the update was incorrectly coded. Of course, there would be no way to tell that it was a bug unless the game designers told the players.

Haha...I said "generally," which does mean what I said was a generalization ^^ And "interesting" is subjective.

#202 - BigPope

It would be a bug if they didn't mean to raise the price. However, they would have had to accidentally code in the price raise and also unintentionally announce a price raise that they didn't knew existed...the chances of which are slim. They meant for scrolls to be sold at 100a and to be bought at 100a by players, and 100a == 100a therefore they DID intend to make it so you can buy and sell scrolls at the same price. And either your #4 is incorrect or Whitehand is blatantly lying:

"and my friend told me they are fixing it in 7 hours so i went to lineagecompendium and found out it was true. besides that i don't think it was worth it so i told people to stop and so they did. we never knew we could possible be banned or punished in any way because sol didn't get any neither."

"i don't even think i exploited a bug after finding out it did make a difference if i reported to nc would i have been banned? well we never know but i dont think so. i didn't bother doing so because it was going to be fixed anyways in 6~7 hours."

That some people are not clear on what a "bug" is does not mean the scroll price was a bug. (Many humans do not know what bonoboes are. When shown a picture of a bonobo, many said "monkey!" Bonoboes are apes, not monkeys. Does their mistake prove that bonoboes are now monkeys and no longer apes?)

Perhaps their stance is based on logic and not hate. But "oh of course they hate NC, that's why they say that" is a wonderful example of ad hominem.

You can call a bonobo a monkey all you want.

By definition, children act childish, therefore I guess they are "childishly punished" 24/7? Try making sense, please.

Similarities are seen by individuals... Monkeys at the zoo and living humans all breathe. Breathing is an action we have in common. Therefore NC should ignore us. Is that what you're saying?

If we were to all act responsibly, we would immediately cancel our accounts and boycott NC until THEY acted responsibly. And don't give me that bs about "Because we didn't suck up to them, they have no time to unban people that they otherwise would have had" ROFL.

It was # 18 of the RoC, not the ToS. But as amer pointed out, it's rather irrelevant. (So are many things mentioned here, such as monkeys and humans breathing or whatever.)

No illegal content can be on the site? Maybe I better post a link to a warez site or something. Then there will a link to a virtual space where illegal activity is possible, even if only for a few seconds until you delete it. Then this'll no longer be an official fansite, eh?

Their user agreement states they don't need a reason. Ethics, OTOH, demands it.

May 02, 2003 03:03 am ET (#207)

OhBoy
Loyal Fan
35 posts
02-18-03

amer

that would be a bug...because they had planned on having it the other way around.

as for our issue, it is not a bug because what happened was exactly what nc wanted. they wanted pandoras prices up...so they put them up.

how people use things may be different from how nc wants us to use things...im sure when nc looks at coi, they think of different ways to use it than most people do. on ken coi is used differently than on dep im sure.

on dep, coi is used for fighting the most.

on ken..i dunno. maybe run to boss?

May 02, 2003 03:17 am ET (#208)

amer
LC Admin
864 posts
07-11-01

But are we guessing the plan? We know they wanted it to change from their own announcement. We know from Korea that they wanted it up. But did they want it to be bought and sold at a profit like that? I mean, I can't put words into NC's mouth, I can only guess.

May 02, 2003 03:27 am ET (#209)

Eantax
Loyal Fan
3 posts
12-12-02

Everyone that is getting really mad at NC

NC isn't the only company that runs mmorpg's. If enough ppl dip out on lin they might change things for the better. But, that doesn't nessiarly mean that they have the best product for us gamers. I have lost many ppl in my pledge to shadowbane and I was thinking of switching over. This might just be the straw that broke the camel's back. And to all the ppl that are hating on ppl that are voicing their opinion PLZ LIGHTEN UP its just a game! Anyways thats my two cents. I just hope that NC wises up and either picks to enforce all of their policies or change their policies all together. This selective stuff just makes ppl, myself included, wonder why they pay them for a service that just makes the gamer angry. And let me state once again plz don't hate on ppl for voicing their opinion especially the LC admins who prolly do alot of work to make forums like this possible.

Word to Yo Motha

May 02, 2003 03:37 am ET (#210)

BigPope
LC Admin
622 posts
01-18-02

Weathersmurf First off.
Use... Brain... PLEASE!
Read my whole posts before you reply. Its almost as you read once sectence from each paragraph, maybe less. If your not going to read the whole thing, then don't reply. But then again chances are you wont even read this part of my post --

they did intend to raise price of the scroll. I never said they didn't. What I said was they didn't intend to make it so castle owners could get 9 adena per a scroll for every one you bought in your town and sold it to Pandora. That was what they didnt intend.

Also, snice you dont seem to read. Or atleast comprehend what you read. I said that the RoC are part of the ToS. Because you must agree to them to agree to ToS.

Also if you quit lineage. What would it matter if the game changed or not, atleast for you.

If you want people to be able to get free adena. Then ask NCsoft for it and maybe they will make a NPC on LoA that gives away millions of adena to people for free.

May 02, 2003 04:05 am ET (#211)

Menaene
Loyal Fan
1 posts
05-02-03

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/177484/Lineage.JPG

May 02, 2003 04:08 am ET (#212)

Dominius
Loyal Fan
24 posts
05-01-03

People... Don't quit Lineage beacuse you wan't NC to wise up >.<

Quit Lineage cause there are MUCH better games out there, and after actions like this, NC doesn't deserve your money imo...

And yeah Amer, firsttime offenders permabanned, I hope you still like the descision as much as yesterday.

I hope all people feel that it's safe to invest time in a game run by NC... I know I don't, I'd buy prats had I known about it and could make some money on it, and I have NEVER cheated in lineage, not even the FI-ticket trick, even if all i go to FI with use it. Of course, had the oj-sinners been banned for that first I wouldn't even think of doing the prat-thing, but they weren't now were they.... Nice to play a game with changing rules that suddenly permaban people for things others have done earlier.

May 02, 2003 04:19 am ET (#213)

BigPope
LC Admin
622 posts
01-18-02

Menaene, That NPC is talking about the new trading deal that was supossed to come with ep 12 but didnt. The one where you buy items in one town then walk no haste/green to another and sell them. Not Teleport to another town.

May 02, 2003 04:31 am ET (#214)

amer
LC Admin
864 posts
07-11-01

Vassago, I'm very confused, as usual. Yesterday I said NC gave people a second chance. On the lineage.com forums, there is proof that first time offenders got banned too. I don't like that yesterday, I don't like that today.

Maybe if you stopped fighting the people who agree with you (me). I know you want an enemy, but look elsewhere. I agree with 95% of what you say.

May 02, 2003 04:37 am ET (#215)

OhBoy
Loyal Fan
35 posts
02-18-03

i cant read minds man...how was i supposed to know this was not thier intent?

but its thier game and they know that all vendor npc's buy back merchandise at 50%....

so they knew that by upping the price of prat at pandora to 200a, she would buy back at 100a.

May 02, 2003 04:49 am ET (#216)

amer
LC Admin
864 posts
07-11-01

I can't read minds either. I'm just saying, just because they said they made a change doesn't prove that ANY change was the change they meant. It's possible that they meant a change but not THAT change. How is anyone supposed to know what NC was thinking when their announcement is so vague?

I'm sure that someone will read this post as a defense of NC, which it's not, so I'm going to go take a nap so I can spend all day tomorrow explaining why people's assumptions are NOT what I'm saying and restating the same thing over and over and over and over..zzzz...

May 02, 2003 04:53 am ET (#217)

BigPope
LC Admin
622 posts
01-18-02

OhBoy. How can you not know that they didnt intend for it to be that way. If they intended it to be that way. They why would 20 some accounts get banned over them doing something that was meant to be part of the game. The fact that they got banned shows that they dont want this to be done.

May 02, 2003 04:58 am ET (#218)

Weathersmurf
Loyal Fan
2 posts
05-01-03

#208/216 - amer

It doesn't matter how they intended players to use it. It matters what they intended it to be.

We could all stand to communicate better, eh? ;) What you can do is keep EditPad (or NotePad or NoteTab or Vim or whatever) open and have several informative lines there, and just C&P where relevant.

#209 - Eantax

Just a warning...from my observations, the guys at Shadowbane don't really know what they're doing either �Ѥ� I checked things out after seeing the article at UnknownPlayer.com some months back. Maybe they're straightened up since then.

#210/213 - BigPope

Oh, well, actually I don't have a brain. You see, I have an empty skull. However, my nerves are metaphysically connected to this invisible flying unicorn who hovers in front of my face and decides what my body should type. (Ok, I'll stop now.)

They DID intend to make it that way. They just didn't intend that people DO USE IT that way, if anything. How people use it has nothing to do with the programming. So it's not a bug.

Yes, the ToS refers to the RoC...gah, just reread amer's post and then mine. Geez. If you still don't get it, it won't kill you to let it drop.

Just because you don't comprehend what I say doesn't mean I don't comprehend what I read.

Did I say I quit Lineage?

If you want your house to be blue, then buy blue paint and a paintbrush and get painting. (Or in other words: quit saying things that have no relevance to the conversation.)

If people walked and took the boat to TI, would you stop calling it a "bug"? LOL.

May 02, 2003 05:38 am ET (#219)

dafish
Loyal Fan
176 posts
11-17-01

first of all i don't think it should be considered a bug, and how can they be banned for exploiting something that isn't illegal? it was poor design, or imbalance in the game. hogging all the bosses by high level players is exploiting the low hit % of the lower lvl players, and thats not a bannable offense, so why is this not bannable?

i must admit that it is unfair for the other players cos at the expense of a couple b-teles they were making tons of money, but this whole thing started off with NC changing the economy without throughly testing it themselves. and now people having seen this flaw, will no doubt take advantage of it, u can't blame people like that when the mistake started off on NC's side.

also if it was a known issue in korea, why was the US players not warned? all it would take is an email to all the castle owners saying "do this and die" and they would not have done it. the only reason i can see why those people were banned was because they saw a flaw in the game design and used the flaw instead of reporting it.

it's like in Diablo 2 where the barbs with 4% Life Leech and 4% Mana Leech and with enough damage, they normally don't run out of HP or MP saving them millions of dollars in pot money. all the players knew it and took advantage of it, and Blizzard didn't do anything until they released a patch to reduce the amount of hp/mp leech.

i mean they had to be stopped, if the amount of money reported by bigpope is true, but perm ban with no warning about a non-existant bug, that was conciously changed by NC, isn't exactly the way to gain customer loyalty u know what i'm saying?

May 02, 2003 06:36 am ET (#220)

Daos
Loyal Fan
182 posts
05-31-02

This has nothing to do with the government, it's NC's property... you don't have a say, move on(like an adult) and learn to deal with it. And I'm 20, which is over 18 and in my opinion an adult... I really hope none of the people who repetitively banter on and on about something they have no right to question(from NC's point of view, not the goddamn government) are over 18 because if you are you need to grow up. If my post seemed a little crude it's because of how much crap the people on Dep who weren't effected by NC's actions have to listen to and/or put up with. They aren't going to be unbanned so just leave it alone already, NC has no doubt heard your pleas so why keep protesting it? The only people who really should have posted here are people who support NC's actions or the actual banned people complaining about how it was unfair , etc etc even though they clearly took advantage of a mistake by NC and then had the nerve to brag about it/mention it to other people. Ironically enough, all the people who were banned were high lvl rich players.. just shows the greed that exists in Lineage...

May 02, 2003 06:38 am ET (#221)

Weathersmurf
Loyal Fan
2 posts
05-01-03

Largest increase reported on Dep server by one pledge: 400k (the one Whitehand helped with)

It should be stopped even if they made just 2a, but NC Austin apparently doesn't care about fairness or consideration to players.

May 02, 2003 06:39 am ET (#222)

Daos
Loyal Fan
182 posts
05-31-02

And don't even compare this to a game like Diablo... this is the latest of the moronic arguments I've seen on this forum. Diablo is a non-pay game last time I checked so do you really think Blizzard would take the time to ban people even though they see the last of customer money the second the game is bought at the store? Think before you post please, it just annoys level-headed people.

May 02, 2003 06:41 am ET (#223)

Daos
Loyal Fan
182 posts
05-31-02

Keep up the good work by the way Amer, Bigpope, etc... talk some sense into these people lol

May 02, 2003 06:44 am ET (#224)

Weathersmurf
Loyal Fan
2 posts
05-01-03

#220 - Daos

Your country is your government's, you don't have a say. Move on if you are sentenced without trial (yes, adults often ignore injustice, ever wonder why younger humans make up a large number of those acting for change for the better?) and learn to deal with it. Your opinion doesn't matter; 18+ is an adult in the eyes of US law (although under Korean law, you'd be considered a minor still). Of course, the number of birthdays you've had is no guarantee of intelligence or rationality, as you prove. You need to grow down and stop being such an arrogant moron..."Oh lookit, I've had more than 18 birthdays, that means I'm always right and I'm superior to you." Shut up.

No, you ignorant idiot, many people were banned, only a few of who were high level.

I can name call too.

May 02, 2003 06:47 am ET (#225)

Weathersmurf
Loyal Fan
2 posts
05-01-03

#222 -

Learn to use English properly. My D2 was definitely paid for.

Since D2 is not monthly p2p, the motivation is GREATER to ban people--less server load, same income. And Blizzard has banned D2 users for cracking and such.

You don't seem to think at all. You just parrot blindly pro-NC-stupidity views.

May 02, 2003 06:51 am ET (#226)

K-ZS-M
Loyal Fan
925 posts
05-04-02

I wonder how they r going to fix the FI bug
the only reason u keep your ticket is because when it kicks u off the boat
doing it makes u not on the boat surface so u don't pay for anything
same goes for TI to Mainland boat
but no one uses that boat nowadays
they would have to create a whole new boat system to prevent that from happening
and if not
they would have to somehow warn the whole community to not to do it
not everyone visits LC or the offical website
but I doubt any action will be taken if u do it now
because
I think the reason NC went crazy on those ppl cuz they made HUGE profit from it, or was suppose to make huge profit from it
if u aren't making profit from it, guess they wouldn't care
since in this bug, u only saving your own hard earned cash
and no one is gaining
they have evidence as they said
they should show the evidence to the banned members in e-mails
they deserve to know what got them banned, what wording they used
so we as a community will be aware in the future as well

May 02, 2003 06:55 am ET (#227)

Daos
Loyal Fan
182 posts
05-31-02

Wow Weathersmurf you sure showed me, ouch.... why people continue flaming my posts really puzzles me lmao, you think you just said anything I haven't already heard? This is a game you jackass not real life, get that through your thick, ignorant skull... I protest lots of things and I think it would even be fair to say I hate the human race because it's ignorance is driving it straight into the ground, as YOU just proved.. but that's beyond the point. I'm anything but arrogant and actually have quite low self esteem, you'll use that against me I'm sure but I don't really care. ...And no, why don't you shut up you little brat.

May 02, 2003 07:01 am ET (#228)

Daos
Loyal Fan
182 posts
05-31-02

And the #1 way to tell if your a wanna-be cry baby computer nerd desperately searching for something to use against a person your arguing with on the computer iiiis... *drumroll* ...POINTING OUT GRAMMAR ERRORS IN THEIR POSTS! I'm not even sure how I used the "English language" wrong but your a ignorant bastard none the less.

May 02, 2003 07:07 am ET (#229)

Daos
Loyal Fan
182 posts
05-31-02

Lol I just saw Whitehand's post on Temp Gaming about what NC said to him.. pretty funny how he believes it, but thats wishful thinking for you. I must admit, when I got banned I thought I had hope because NC said the same thing to me and that they'd get back to me for a ban of muuuuch less severity and guess what? It's been 1.5 years and I'm still waiting lmao... aw maaaan better go cry to mommy/get players on Lineage to cry for me.

May 02, 2003 08:21 am ET (#230)

Puertorico
Loyal Fan
3 posts
01-29-03

BIGPOPE: "My list of nash is quite a bit larger. Most posibly that all these are just expired accounts but I doubt it. Most likely Most of them are 2/3rd characters of the stronger names."

SpikeFiend
SirConKnight
Seiyaryu
NighTraiN
ElvenThug
Discarded
CH1MER1A
Z0RBIS
TriJeT
THESARGE
Tarceth
Rarptior
Perkyness
Mostasteless
MaximusMo
Legotheelf
JiJonMuYin
Jibberish
FluidG
Falthador
ElfSahara
Duganhimer
DiscoBiscuit
Admantium
Psyanide
MrBiggs
Kedawen
DrakSaix
YellowRuby
JinSama
Drearnmer
Dreamrner

None of those have been banned. 95% of those ppl have not been seen for a looooonnnnnngggg time. So Accts expired and they have yet to return. The last 2 did you mentioned did not get ban he is still around he just did not pay this time around and Falthador has not been on due to personal issues. Most of these characters have not been around for sooooo damn long so there is no way they were banned over this issue. Most of them quit long ago and many have not been around. Not one that you mentioned above has been banned. I been in NASH for almost a year so I think I have somewhat knowledge about this. But if you want a confirmation from one of the council members talk to Injektilo or Murkbane about this. So you can scrap that list cause NASH had none of its ppl involved in this or have been banned. I may be wrong but I know for sure that none was on this.

May 02, 2003 09:21 am ET (#231)

Weathersmurf
Loyal Fan
2 posts
05-01-03

#227/228 - Daos

Same goes for you. Why do you have to be such a counterproductive flaming nitwit? You think your flames are anything we haven't heard? ("Grow up" is especially original.) Games are part of real life. (This is a job, not real life. This is food, not real life. Huh?) Yes, I proved that quite well, using you as a prime example. Oh ok, "I have low self esteem, wah wah, but I'm still superior to you and I'm still an arrogant know-it-all." I see now.

And no, I said it first! So YOU have to shut up before I do! Hah!

It's not a grammatical error, genius. I don't care about grammar. (It's way overrated. I should know. I'm an English teacher ^^ whee.) Just look up "pay" in the dictionary, and you might get it.

Ok, this is getting boring. Let's be friends now, at least until we get bored of that. Deal?

May 02, 2003 11:31 am ET (#232)

amer
LC Admin
864 posts
07-11-01

#221 Weathersmurf
"Largest increase reported on Dep server by one pledge: 400k (the one Whitehand helped with)"
I know from conversations with parties that wish to remain anonymous that the amount of fraud committed is much more than 400k. I have been urging NC to release the full amount so that we know the full extent.

May 02, 2003 01:26 pm ET (#235)

OhBoy
Loyal Fan
35 posts
02-18-03

what im saying is, when you are dealing with money you have to make everything black and white. you cant expect people to guess at what your intentions are.

they say they are making a change...ok, what change? why couldnt they tell us why instead of having some people guess what it was and try it out?

the same way they expect us not to exploit bugs, i expect them to clearly outline what is a bug.

no guessing games.

May 02, 2003 01:49 pm ET (#236)

Daos
Loyal Fan
182 posts
05-31-02

Whatever, your wrong and you are NOT an english teacher and if you are I feel sorry for the kids who actually have to listen to your bulls***. I'm not posting again so make your last word post and make it quick you hypocritical piece of s***.

May 02, 2003 02:38 pm ET (#237)

K-ZS-M
Loyal Fan
925 posts
05-04-02

wonder what the full amount is.....
must have been so big.....
NC noticed big time......
what to believe....
the banned ppl should give NC permission to release the information about how they got banned to the public
that way we'll know y and the complete truth
taking advantage of the bug is ok
but not abusing it
everyone has to stay away from profit making bugs.....
other kind of bugs won't get us banned thank goodness.....

May 02, 2003 02:44 pm ET (#238)

Elric
Loyal Fan
337 posts
10-29-02

i heard rumors about katana using hacks ..; appart of this exploit ..;

May 02, 2003 02:47 pm ET (#239)

OhBoy
Loyal Fan
35 posts
02-18-03

bullshit...katana does not use hacks. i know because we are real life friends.

i dont wanna say who, but he uses a coi hack. most of his pledge too. but because he used to have gm on his side nothing happens to him.

May 02, 2003 02:54 pm ET (#240)

Crackerman
Loyal Fan
34 posts
11-12-02

#190
I beg to differ. They can not (as you call it) "run there game anyway they like".

May 02, 2003 03:02 pm ET (#241)

K-ZS-M
Loyal Fan
925 posts
05-04-02

the whole point is not to get caught
once u're caught
u're fucked
if u're not caught and left no evidence
u're a free man
no point pointing fingers at each other
NC is the source of evil

May 02, 2003 03:07 pm ET (#242)

F00Child
Loyal Fan
17 posts
10-14-02

What I don't understand is, what was the purpose in messing with the price of remove curse scrolls?

I just want to know what NC was trying to accomplish with this particular game update in the first place.

The only thing i can think is

"oh, the newbie experience sucks because people aren't reciving enough money for their prats on TI" ?

I don't think anything on TI even drops prats.

The prat update was put in with the specific intent of having it lead to expliotation/banning, or, some NC developer thought it would go un-noticed and decided to create a little backdoor for himself.

Notice how they made sure the fix/bannings took place just in time for the giran siege.... Notice how they made sure the B2S delay got put in durring an "unscheduled maintanance" just in time for the giran siege? If you ask me, this whole tobacle REEEEEEEEKS of conspiracy.

NC staff members are allowed to, and DO play this game. It is IMPOSSIBLE for them to be un-bais.

May 02, 2003 03:21 pm ET (#243)

Kyzah
NC Staff
7 posts
04-18-03

In reply to #58:

From BigPope:

"Seeing that 50+ accounts from Paldo, Nash, FCA, and other Anti Alliance pledges got perm banned over using this exploit."

This is incorrect. Only 19 total accounts were banned as a result of this issue.

May 02, 2003 03:34 pm ET (#244)

Eantax
Loyal Fan
3 posts
12-12-02

#218 weathersmurf

Shadowbane was still in beta a few months back. I have more confidence in Ubisoft than NC anyways.

May 02, 2003 03:39 pm ET (#245)

americorps
Loyal Fan
36 posts
01-16-03

Kyzah: That is specific information about account activities according to your own definition of what can and can't be said, you have broken the tos and have released specifics about account banning, It is your policy not to disclose such things. You are banned.

May 02, 2003 03:56 pm ET (#246)

Dominius
Loyal Fan
24 posts
05-01-03

Foochild, I think they did it to mess a bit with the newbs, make it a little more expensive for them to un-curse those damn ord-items... hehe

Thanks for coming here Kyzah, would it be even remotely possible to get the number of how much was actually gained by these 19 people?
I mean what was the actual profit for the castleholding princes after aden got it's share and all, and if there is a cap on income etc.

May 02, 2003 03:58 pm ET (#247)

Dominius
Loyal Fan
24 posts
05-01-03

Eantax: Shadowbane is out of Beta, the game is great, and Ubisoft haven't messed up yet at least. looking good. Only thing is some initial lag-issues, they'll fix.

May 02, 2003 04:02 pm ET (#248)

Mackdown
Loyal Fan
175 posts
06-06-02

haha Kyzah posted too
i was wondering, did melantus get his NC Staff title taken away?

May 02, 2003 04:07 pm ET (#249)

Kyzah
NC Staff
7 posts
04-18-03

In reply to #246:

From Dominius:

"Thanks for coming here Kyzah, would it be even remotely possible to get the number of how much was actually gained by these 19 people?"

I really can't speculate on that amount, no, but I did ask Rock if it would be okay for me to set the record straight on the number of players banned since the speculated numbers were way off. And that number of accounts is not solely limited to Depardieu.

Rock did say the following on the official forums:

"In this case, we investigated this instance and found GROSS violations by a few people numbering in the hundreds of thousands, one case even over a million scrolls."

May 02, 2003 04:59 pm ET (#250)

OhBoy
Loyal Fan
35 posts
02-18-03

kyzah, since i was banned, i have no objections with you posting how many scrolls each individual bought and sold.

can you ask rock if you can post that too? and also, for how long each person was doing this.

May 02, 2003 06:06 pm ET (#251)

BigPope
LC Admin
622 posts
01-18-02

Kyzah, Thank you for the number. I just used linweb to get the ammount of inactive characters in pledges I have seen in recent seiges and then divided that number by 3 to come up with my number. Though linweb doesnt distingust between inactive adn banned, and even some active no banned accounts get the same error.

"few people numbering in the hundreds of thousands, one case even over a million scrolls"
1,500,000(guess) scrolls times ammount made from tax, which is 9(or maybe 10?), = 13.5 million adena. Thats alot more then the "400k" people kept claiming they made.

Not that these numbers even matter.

Weathersmurf: only a small part of the post was meant for you, the rest was more of directed to the public.

May 02, 2003 06:29 pm ET (#252)

linhacker
Loyal Fan
posts
05-02-03

Hmm, Hello. I would like to say a few things about this "COI" hack. I myself used a coi hack all of .77 server and on dep some in the eailer times. COI has changed a lot snice then. On the US servers they stoped making coi be considered a Character that just said to lineage I am invisable, dont show me on screen. And seperated COI characters completely. It took me awile to figure this out. Then about 1 year ago, it was changed so that lineage didnt even send you the character ID, or pretty much any information about the person in COI, At this point with extensive editing of lineage, you could place that someone was in coi, but you had no idea what class it was, or even who it was. Without know what the ID of a Character has on the server, you cant send the server that you are attacking them. You had to use detect to get the characters ID before you could even start swinging. Even more recent, they decided not to even tell you that something was their unless it was in a zone where you couldn't walk through it, ie seige zones. Not that this even matters to this case.

What does matter, is that if your in coi and you get attacked and it does damage, You get popped out of COI. So why would they cast detect if they poped you out of coi by hitting you the first time. I mean, it seems worthless to me. This is something that should be know by any player that has a coi.

Now what you describe would be something I like to call lag. And I sure suffer from lag enough to know what to call it. A lagged person will on his client see you out of coi when your still in it for as bad as their lag is. If they have 2 second lag, they see you for 2 seconds even after you put on your coi. because their client is told your still their. This should clears things up for you.

I think its funny that you american players go so crazy over this, I am happy i quit the US servers shortly after we got our own in Taiwan. Tt seems like everyone that plays over here uses cheats. If you want to talk to me ingame, I play on the �ԯ��A�� server as �ʩԧJ��.

May 02, 2003 08:43 pm ET (#253)

Akeel
Loyal Fan
posts
02-22-03

May 02, 2003 08:52 pm ET (#254)

Akeel
Loyal Fan
posts
02-22-03

We've heard that millions of prats were sold, but isn't there some CAP on how much income a castle can make in a day? If that's the case, the millions of prats are irrelevant because after that castle income cap is reached all other prats sold would be irrelevant to making castle income. But that's not the case anyways. I think this case is about what's fair.
NC has turned a blind eye to many agreed upon bugs, like the FI boat bug and the SOL oj case (which is similar to this case). Why weren't these abusers banned?
If you really want to get NC on their toes, what I suggest you do is tell PC game reviewers about this to spread the news, and let other people decide if NC customer service is doing a good job with its customer base. That would be a PR nightmare for the company and I'm sure heads would start rolling in Austin. As they're not doing too well in the U.S. right now, I'm sure they wouldn't want the negative publicity.

May 02, 2003 09:18 pm ET (#255)

Prince Drathen
Loyal Fan
223 posts
12-04-02

The fact still remains Amer, that if you make counterfeit currency, you won't be sentenced to death, or given life in prison, unless you murder a few people, and no murders occurred here.

#134 That's very arguable. A lot of people enjoy cheating when they play games. That's why there's hardware like the Game Shark out there. Whether cheating is fun for the player or not is all a matter of opinion. You play legitimately, and you have fun. Some cheat, and they have fun.
#135 Maybe since we lost Whitehand, you can come back, and continue where you left off?

I believe some people (On the Lineage.com forums), including Amer, were figuring out how much Adena you'd be able to make in a day with this "exploit". And it only came out to something like, 6m Adena per 8 hours. That's not so bad. Unless these people were doing this for weeks, I can't see how it could've been so bad to deserve a permenant ban.

May 02, 2003 09:26 pm ET (#256)

Prince Drathen
Loyal Fan
223 posts
12-04-02

NCSoft's biggest problem with their customer service is that they don't have Monitors in the game to help with problems. Would it really be so much to ask to have one or two Monitors on each server (Whisper on) 24/7 to solves things through the game? The majority of players don't want to leave the game and go use the website to solve their problems. Some players want their problems solved quickly, and that, E-Mail is not. There's nothing more annoying than sending an informative E-Mail to NCSoft, only to have them send you one back that says one of two things. A. We're looking into it (We'll answer you in an indefinite period of time). B. Ask a stupid question like, "What server do you play on?" Even if it was already stated in the E-Mail you sent. To actually get anything done through the support website, you have to spend a good amount of time responding to E-Mail. And I for one, can't stand E-Mail.

They need IN-GAME support. They could make a schedule of which monitors will be on at which hours, etc. It's as simple as that.

May 02, 2003 10:10 pm ET (#257)

Weathersmurf
Loyal Fan
2 posts
05-01-03

#236 - Daos

"When one loses an argument, it is preferable to question the winner's real life job, use profanity, and claim to not respond again."

C'mon, I bet we could be good friends. You seem like a nice guy. Stop trying to act mean =P

#244 - Eantax

Mm let's see...yes, it certainly was beta, and had been forever, since they always delayed going gold. Ok, fine, so they made a few mistakes there. Then they have to publish those things on their site that certain gamers (called Heralds) write about stuff ingame, which, in the eyes of some beta testers, were deliberately misleading on the quality of the game, and they thought it unfair that due to the NDA they could not correct them. There was some fuss because UP found out that the Heralds may be getting paid (which could certainly make their writing biased towards making SB look good)...people at SB said they were getting paid, they weren't getting paid, they would never get paid, they weren't getting paid now but might get paid in the future...I was like WTF? (http://www.unknownplayer.com/news.php?id=988 ...UP doesn't always get the little details right but you can get some info here.) At one point they were having a contest on who could go on messageboards (including those specifically for competing games such as EQ and UO) and make the "most and best" posts about Shadowbane. Winners would be eligible to win Ubi Soft Prize Packs. IMO you shouldn't bribe people to advertise your game on other forums; if the players think it's a good game so they talk about it on their own, that's fine, but bribery? (http://www.unknownplayer.com/news.php?id=1107 ...there are screen shots of the contest there.) Hmm...and I can't remember exactly, but I thought the restricted races were originally supposed to be a quest reward or some such, but then they gave them out only to people who pre-ordered -.-;; One person used to be a big SB fan, but they (can't remember gender, don't sue me for bad grammar, "s/he" is a pain to type out) lost faith in Ubi/WP. So to show how they felt, they made a "Ubi/WP Faith-O-Meter" or something like that to be their signature on the official boards. It gradually went down as they saw Ubi/WP screw up. At something like 17%, a mod took it on himself to bully them. Then, IIRC, they got banned for the sig. I can't remember the other stuff the SB people did, but I remember listing them at the time for someone else who was interested in SB, and the list was longer than that =P

So NC Austin aren't the only idiots around who run games. BTW, NC (Korea) are somewhat idiots, but generally they're fair and not total morons like NCI/NC Austin...don't lump all of NC together :D

#247 - Dominius

Perhaps they did shape up. I might check 'em out too.

#251 - BigPope

Do you pay ANY attention to what other people post (apart from the NC Austin idiots)? In about an hour, Whitehand's got 400k. 400k! There is a tax cap!

If they don't matter, why do you keep saying stuff like "They must've made <insert absurd amount here like 500 million>! That totally destroys the economy! You want the economy to be destroyed??"

Great, all of what I directed to you was meant for you, so why don't YOU answer?

#256 - Drathen

Heaven forbid they actually have GMs to HELP the players instead of going to the mall all day, coming home, and spending 2 minutes banning people for not cheating or letting their younger brother play...

May 02, 2003 10:50 pm ET (#258)

UnFaithFul
Loyal Fan
37 posts
12-26-02

In Reply to #249

Kyzah:
" Rock did say the following on the official forums:

"In this case, we investigated this instance and found GROSS violations by a few people numbering in the hundreds of thousands, one case even over a million scrolls." "

Well, ok millions of scrolls were used.

But in the end, I would like to know how much this offsetted the income of the castle systems as this should be what dictates the magnitude of punishment the accused should receive and not how many scrolls they used. The amount they offset the balance of Aden should be used.

As you have already given us information on how many scrolls were sold, is it possible for you to also give us the offset the selling of the scrolls caused to the castle revenues?

Thanks~

May 03, 2003 11:45 pm ET (#259)

Sunrise
Loyal Fan
30 posts
06-05-02

I just think it's a shame that people got permenantly banned for something like this... 19 accounts is still a lot, considering that many of those 19 players were high profile characters and close friends with many other players many of whom will quit as well. And I'd just like to say to those that are happy that this is done... stop being so spiteful! Every player that quits is a loss to the lineage community. I also think that NC should distinguish between ppl who meant to do it to exploit and those that did it just cuz they were curious or were just to;d to do it... even the law distinguishes between these different levels of knowledge... a person must display mens rea before they can be convicted... At any rate, I don't approve of perma bans for any crime... It's like capital punishment! And if you have read any of the stats on that, it doesn't lower the crime rate in the states that do have it.. In fact there is evidence that crime rates are often higher than in states that don't have it... Use more creative ways to punish... Maybe bad luck drops forever! or.... I dunno.. Make them pick up garbage around town or something... it's more humane, and at the same time, you show them that crime doesn't pay!

May 04, 2003 12:45 am ET (#260)

Daos
Loyal Fan
182 posts
05-31-02

If someone used over a million scrolls that person should never be unbanned, talk about greed... how much did they make per scroll? You see, I knew they didnt make like 500k or whatever.. it was a multi-million adena exploit for probably every one of the 19 people banned. Its bad for the server, but people like this need to be weeded out. Why NC didn't catch the other people who did it is strange but oh well.. at least they got those 19. I'd bet the person who did over a million was Bravehearts, he was always really greedy lmao.

May 04, 2003 12:50 am ET (#261)

Daos
Loyal Fan
182 posts
05-31-02

What a bunch of bulls*** these people are giving us. "Duhhhh I made several million adena for doing nothing but teleing around selling scrolls but I'm too much of a jackass to know any better." And then when they get banned, "Wahh how come we got banned and those other people who were involved with that other bug didn't?" Because YOU got caught and THEY didn't you retards, accept it and move on.. time to explore real life. Maybe you can use all the helpful skills you learned playing Lineage 18 hours a day out in the real world LMAO

May 04, 2003 01:14 am ET (#262)

Weathersmurf
Loyal Fan
2 posts
05-01-03

If you don't value adena, you can give me all of yours ^^

Stop talking out of your...eh...quit lying and calling honest people liars. And you probably murdered twenty people in your town and the FBI are probably after you.

May 04, 2003 01:44 am ET (#263)

Daos
Loyal Fan
182 posts
05-31-02

You weren't directing that at me were you? Somehow I think you were but it doesn't make sense if you did...

May 04, 2003 02:54 am ET (#264)

Weathersmurf
Loyal Fan
2 posts
05-01-03

You said "talk about greed." Of course they value adena. If you don't, give me yours! We're friends, right? ^^

Making false accusations is unbecoming. Why, I might be embarassed to have a friend like that around. So be nice =P

May 04, 2003 04:15 am ET (#265)

NathanS
Loyal Fan
46 posts
02-04-03

Nice they got banned, they deserved it. I would have like tha NC took the profit away from them and let them keep playing but in the other hand it was an exploit and they were warned b4 this. I know its part of game but, it like being a politic, u can make profit from there and that is being corrupt, and that my friends is BAD and even if its possible is not right....

May 04, 2003 06:23 am ET (#266)

Daos
Loyal Fan
182 posts
05-31-02

uh I value adena but I don't value it enough to cheat and every post you make makes me doubt even more that your over the age of 12 -_-

May 04, 2003 07:20 am ET (#267)

Weathersmurf
Loyal Fan
2 posts
05-01-03

#265 - NathanS

Liar.

#266 - Daos

Neither did they, apparently.

Did I ever say I'm over the age of 12? My mentality is no better than that of the average 2 year old, and in many ways, worse. (See, I'm honest about myself as well as everything else!) When I was about 14, lots of people thought I was at least 20. One person mistook me for 30 or so when I was, I think I was 15... Then again tons of people made sure I knew how immature they thought I was and one person sincerely thought I was about 10 when I was 14 or 15. I must be a very confusing person.

But, well, yeah, I'm actually over 12. But you can accept me the way I am, with all my flaws, right? Friends are supposed to be friends no matter what! ^^ Besides, more people didn't mind me when I was 14 than now. I think the theory that I aroused parental concern was correct. I can act as much as I can like I did when I was 14 if it'll make us better friends ;)

So how old are you? Do you ever cheat in games?

May 04, 2003 07:28 am ET (#268)

Daos
Loyal Fan
182 posts
05-31-02

I think you have a few problems man but I'm actually 20 and my pic is under Daos/XDAOSX(it was tooken 2 years ago) on real pic section and no I don't cheat in games, even though there's no way to cheat in Lineage(excluding the occasional bug) except buying items for real money which I would never do.

May 04, 2003 08:17 am ET (#269)

Weathersmurf
Loyal Fan
2 posts
05-01-03

I think I have many problems but being a man isn't one of them. (My brother teases me often about the inferiority of females but he's the one with the problem of being male ;) Nor is cheating in Lineage (although it flatters me that someone called me the "poster girl for cheating")...

I don't participate in the real pic section. I'm ashamed to let the world see how ugly I am ;p Pics online are hardly proof of age anyway. Not that age matter to me; you're the ageist here. Evil ageist!

There are plenty of ways to cheat in Lineage =P Why wouldn't you do it?

Well, it seems you do abide by the Rules of Conduct for Lineage. YOU SHOULD BE BANNED!

May 04, 2003 08:20 am ET (#270)

K-ZS-M
Loyal Fan
925 posts
05-04-02

they got caught
now they facing the punishment
ppl keep mentioning that sol did the same thing with oj trick
was sol caught?
I don't think they were or else they would be banned too
plus u could make more money with the scrolls compared to ojs (can carry more scrolls weight wise)
what? NC is favouring them?
did anyone report about the oj situation?
probably not cuz they did not know about it
so what? u want them to go back almost yr to check if they did anything like that?
silly lineage community
if u do the crime and get away, u're lucky
if u're caught, u're going to get in deep shit
like I seen ppl cheat on tests in class
u think I'm going to rat them out? no, they want to cheat, let them cheat, their lost in some way
if the teacher catches them, they will face the punishment

will be interesting if the ppl banned actually go and sue NC for this....
I will honestly laugh my ass off if they do....
talk about ppl taking a game to the extreme...
well....I guess I can understand whitehand...him being such a high lvl
but if u think about it...
when was he lvl 50+?
sometime october I believe...
now we're in may...
if u play like whitehand....can get to lvl 60+ within half a yr...
that is quite....impressive? or.....not as hard as we thought?
if someone can gain a lvl every 2 weeks...
losing your account isn't so bad....
unless u believe in "sharing is against TOS and u're cheating!"
may be on the TOS but if u listened to NC employees....they said they only care when u report that u were hacked or some sort....so in other words....is not a serious offense which many of u take it as...
if u want to get to lvl 50+ on your own
be my guest
but it will either take up a big part of your life or take u forever
and u'll join daos's list of "no life losers" for sure....haha

May 04, 2003 08:40 am ET (#271)

Weathersmurf
Loyal Fan
2 posts
05-01-03

Grrrr...the thing is IT'S NOT A CRIME! How many times do I have to say it? -.-;;

BTW, Daos, check your PMs at Templar if ya don't mind, friend!

May 04, 2003 10:20 am ET (#272)

Daos
Loyal Fan
182 posts
05-31-02

Stick it to the man, K-ZS-M

May 04, 2003 03:23 pm ET (#273)

NathanS
Loyal Fan
46 posts
02-04-03

#271
Liar about what, b4 playing they knew TOS if they didnt its their fault. Thats a warning, if u see a Bug report it and dont exploit it.

Another thing, cheating is a bad thing, if many ppl do it then all that ppl r doing wrong. A bad thing cant turn to good if many ppl use or or do it. I mean a really bad thing.

Its a shame that the highest lvl in US got banned, lvling like that im sure he was gonna catch Poseidon some time in the furtur, but not now

May 04, 2003 09:22 pm ET (#274)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

I took a break from this arguement because it was giving the cheaters a chance to gain sympathy. I don't think they deserve any, but golly, if it will shut them up, I will give them what they want:
I am so sad that you had to go out this way.

That said, the cheaters should now be able to go away quietly. Unfortunately, I do not think they will graciously admit defeat. Why? They want everyone to have to pay for their mistakes. I think that we ARE paying; their words are so wrong that it makes my head hurt. Literally, it brings pain to me to try to understand what the hell was just said.

Now, I am not the kind of person who enjoys being confused. When something confuses me, I get frustrated. When I am frustrated, I become angry; as I am now.

I am not angry because the cheaters are pointing fingers at everyone trying to take others down with them. I find this reaction very fitting to their situation and the panic they must be feeling.

I am not angry because the friends of the cheaters are trying to persuade NC to unban accounts. Any good friend would do the same.

I am angry that people are trying to justify cheating as being OK. I am angry that people say they are not responsible for their actions, and instead blame NC or other people. More than anything, I am angry at all of the bull shit that is being said in the name of justice.

So, what can I do about it? Probably the best thing I could do is ignore you. Lucky for you, I don't always do what is best. It is not my style to let people get away with saying such slanderous, stupid, or just plain ignorant things. I must rebut.

There is much to discuss, where to start???

May 04, 2003 10:45 pm ET (#275)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

Weathersmurf,

You get to be first, and I am honored that my humble opinions may be shared with, and perhaps thrashed by, you. You have posted, by far, the greatest amount of ignorant, stupid, or just plain wrong, comments to this discussion. I don't suppose it helps when you just can't stop writing.. On the other hand, how well thought out can an arguement be when it is just plain wrong? Ah, I love a good flaming..

You said, "I have to agree it's not a bug, by definition." You then go on to discribe a number of things that are not bugs, which I must say you did beautifully.

Please allow me to further develop your idea about non-bugs. Adena is not a bug, it was put into the game with the intent that it could be used as game currency. The great thing about currency is that you can buy or sell things with it. Castle owners are then entitled to a percentage of the cost of the transaction (as intented). When an item is bought for 100 adena, the cost of the item is 91 adena, and the castle gets 10% tax or 9 adena. Now, when you go to the store to buy an item and pay sales tax, it heads to the government. However, when you sell the item you get all of your money back, even the tax. I tend to agree that these were added into the game as intended, game features, and are not bugs.

Hah, I see that you are scratching your head, you must know where I am going with this but do not yet want to admit it. An unintended (BUG) thing occurred when adding this last feature, the tax adena was not being taken away from the castle upon refund. Sit down, I have some disturbing news, this was a bug.

Now, in proving that this was a bug, I have disproved just about every one of your statements that where you build your arguement from the false conclusion that "There is no bug."

What you believe is not what is real? Whoa, slow down son, read some books on ethics and morality of thought and ground yourself. Are you really so caught up in being above it all that you have forgotten what it is to just be? You are, I am, and all the nonsense in the world cannot save you now. As unbiased as you think you are, you refuse to follow in the very idealism that you say you are, "I'll stay an ... open-minded, reasonable person." You may have read Lao Tzu or Nisargadatta but I can see that you have yet to take the time to think about what they are telling you.

Nontheless you have thought, and in doing so have realized a great deal of things about what IS. I can tell you that 1 + 1 is 2, even if you think that it is 3. If 1 + 1 is not 2, then 1 is not 1, or 2 is not 2, etc.

In any case, we play by the rules that govern us. If 1 + 1 is 2, we cannot change that. So are the laws of the universe. By playing Lineage we submit our mind to a new set of rules, different, yet similar, to those of our current reality. These rules ARE, and to say they are NOT is ignorant. Without the very rules that hold together Lineage, Lineage is not Lineage. When the rules no longer apply, the rules have changed, and when that happens Lineage is not Lineage, it is something different. Fortunately, the people who broke the rules are those whose world has changed, and those of us who have not can continue to be ignorant to change. This is good.

I am willing to continue this discussion, however I fear that my philosophical prowess is much weaker than I believe. And so, to end this arguement, I apoligize for offending (or complementing), for pretending to be better than (and I do, at times), or just plain being mean (or nice), to YOU.

My final thought is that bending rules and beliefs can expand your knowledge, but ignoring the collective belief of others, or what IS, is just plain ignorant.

May 04, 2003 11:11 pm ET (#276)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

Someone,

I cannot remember who said that there is a tax cap. Your right, the tax cap is 50%. On the other hand, there is no cap on the absolute value of the adena gained from the Tax (Unless - it is constrained by the type of variable in memory. This value is most likely a DWORD which means it could contain up to 2^32-1 adena.).

May 04, 2003 11:14 pm ET (#277)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

Prince Drathen,
You said, "Would it really be so much to ask to have one or two Monitors on each server (Whisper on) 24/7 to solves things through the game?" In short, Yes. People would take the GMs time asking for free items, help hunting, or just to be friends. How could someone who has a problem ever be able to communicate the GM if he is flooded by other people just talking.

If anyone has a real problem, they can take the time to email support. If they won't take time to email for help, then they obviously do not need any help.

May 04, 2003 11:15 pm ET (#278)

Weathersmurf
Loyal Fan
2 posts
05-01-03

#273 - NathanS

It wasn't a bug. Therefore, they weren't exploiting a bug. Therefore, they weren't cheating.

#275 - NoLuCK

Thank you for the ad hominem. It really helps your case.

Well, what any argument from either side boils down to is "It was a bug" or "It was not a bug." However, NCI intended for Pandora to buy prats for 100a. They may not have intended for people to sell mass prats to her to increase taxes, but that has nothing to do with the coding--it's about players' behavior, which is another matter and does not fall under the definition of a bug. They may not have intended for people to use houses to 1v1 mops in the doorways, but they did intend for houses to exist and for the doorways to be 1 square, so using houses to 1v1 mops is not a bug. It seems NC Korea knows this, because they listed the new change in prat price as a change and not as a fix.

I take offense to being referred to as male. Being male is a terrible disease to have, and I don't have it =P

I never said whatever is the opposite of what one believes is real; I meant that believing something does not make it so.

I suppose Lineage is not Lineage now and pretty much never was, as the rules have been broken almost constantly. (No, I don't know that for a fact, but I'm making a guess that, for example, many people have always account shared.)

Ignoring opinions and falsehoods is not necessarily a bad thing. Blindly acceping opinions and falsehoods because many others believe them can be a bad thing.

"If you are in a minority of one, the truth is still the truth." -Gandhi

May 04, 2003 11:17 pm ET (#279)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

FOOChild,
You said, "NC staff members are allowed to, and DO play this game. It is IMPOSSIBLE for them to be un-bais." If it becomes impossible for them to be unbiased, im sure it will be impossible for them to do their job. What happens to people who cannot do their job function? They lose their job.

Most people, excluding children and those of you how have no morals or ethics, would not risk their job to help their friend. A true friend would not put anyone in that position in the first place.

You also said, "The prat update was put in with the specific intent of having it lead to expliotation/banning, or, some NC developer thought it would go un-noticed and decided to create a little backdoor for himself." Fact or opinion?

My opinion is that you are making things up because you got banned. It was your intent to exploit the bug, and later it was NC's intent to ban you. However, it is humorous to think that NC was plotting against you in an attempt to trick you into using the exploit. How does it feel to have been played like a fiddle?

May 04, 2003 11:20 pm ET (#280)

Weathersmurf
Loyal Fan
2 posts
05-01-03

#277 - NoLuCK

Gee, how come there are GMs on the Korean servers?

Some people just really hate email. Whatever you may say about it, it's the truth. And regardless, email is slower than talking realtime to someone.

#279 -

GMs may be biased but ACT without bias. However, I know that at least one GM certainly does act with bias.

And I don't think NCI really cares how well GMs do their job =P NC Korea does try to keep out corruption, but...well, when a GM sells a castle on a new server for 10kUSD and runs away, they already got the 10kUSD =P

"Fact or opinion?" Probably speculation.

May 05, 2003 12:04 am ET (#281)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

Weathersmurf,

You continue to refer to this, whatever it is, as not being a bug. For the sake of arguement I will call it a THING. Now this THING has nothing to do with code, as you have implied, and is determined solely by a players behavior in the game ("but that has nothing to do with the coding--it's about players' behavior"). Please correct me if I misunderstand you.

In an earlier post you defined a bug as being "a defect in the code or routine of a program."

Lineage is software. The code was written by programmers and then parsed, compiled, and linked to create the program. The resulting software is machine code that can be run on a computer. Surely, you must agree that: Lineage is created by code, built by code, and results in code.

This said, all allowed behaviors in Lineage must be handled in code. Any behavior that is not handled does not exist. If the code was handled, but handled incorrectly, so that (for the sake of this arguement) adena is duped, it would be a defect in the code of the program. By definition, the adena duping defect was a bug.

What becomes of the magical term THING we created earlier? Nothing, it does not exist in reference to Lineage. Lineage is machine code, and THING has nothing to do with code.

Perhaps everything you are talking about has nothing to do with Lineage?

Then again, you try to compare the adena dupe with fighting monsters in a 1:1 spot. We can argue all day that it was or was not the intent of the programmers for either of these behaviors to be allowed. However, only the programmers will be able to tell us which of us is right. This said, if the programmer says its a bug, it is a bug. How are you qualified to tell him what his intent was?

NC made Lineage. NC said this is a bug. NC is right.

I agree that "Blindly acceping opinions and falsehoods because many others believe them can be a bad thing" but I think it is much worse when you follow yourself when you are wrong. Just so I am clearn on this, I AM implying that you are wrong.

But, im sure you will tell me how the opposite of left is right, and of right is wrong, and of wrong is correct.

May 05, 2003 12:19 am ET (#282)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

Smurf,

Although I really enjoy our discussion, I hate the fact that you use rumors to be facts. Do you just make it up on the fly?

1. Gee, how come there are GMs on the Korean servers?
They are there to monitor the status of the server. But don't get cute with me on this, you are implying 'why aren't there GMs on the US servers?' Well, there are, but they use the title Monitor rather than GameMaster. It does not change the fact that they both serve the same purpose, to monitor the state of Lineage within the game.

2. Some people just really hate email. Whatever you may say about it, it's the truth. And regardless, email is slower than talking realtime to someone
Why don't you just ask for phone support or something. The cold hard fact is that even the Korean server GMs do not open their whisper for in game questions.

3. Why would a GM sell a castle for 10,000 USD? Richard Garriot owns a castle, but he lives in it and he is not a GameMaster. So, what are you talking about?

May 05, 2003 12:54 am ET (#283)

K-ZS-M
Loyal Fan
925 posts
05-04-02

the whole point is they took advantage of it and made too much money
if they made only 1 or 2 million, ok, not such a big deal
but whoever was the idiot who bought over 1 million curse removal scrolls or something to that amount, they basically woke NC up and they saw what was going on
those ppl who just tried it once and never again, u were caught in the crossfire and suffering cuz of your idiotic friends who went beyond
whitehand spoke of how much he made
but there is more castles in aden
especially Aden Castle....
considering that castle gets taxes from all the other castles
ppl say it is nothing?
oh it is something
the amount must have been so big, gave them too much of an advantage
1 or 2 million is nothing to a castle owner
100 or 200 million....abit extreme....u made a LARGE amount of money for doing jackshit

May 05, 2003 01:19 am ET (#284)

Weathersmurf
Loyal Fan
2 posts
05-01-03

#281/282 - NoLuCK

You're making no distinction between the function and use of the function. By your definition, we have no way of knowing if the playing of knights are a bug, if the use of elven magic is a bug, if equipping items is a bug, etc.

I'm qualified because I read the list of changes. I find it rather hard to believe that they changed the prat price by accident, then unintentionally told us that they intentionally changed the prat price. If you base your argument on that it's very plausible, gl convincing people.

'Scuse?

1. Their title is irrelevant. Actually, usually people email or use a form in either case =P

2. The point is they can stay in the game, but phone might be useful. Korean GMs do have whisper on some of the time and talk to players.

3. On Korean servers, when a new server opens up, everyone wants to take over the castles. Some pledges will pay real cash for a castle. GM hands over the castle, pockets the cash, and flees. My main point that NC Korea does try to do something about employee corruption.

#283 - K-ZS-M

Oh, so one castle (I think it was Heine) made 400k, which means Aden made 100 or 200 million? =P

May 05, 2003 02:02 am ET (#285)

BigPope
LC Admin
622 posts
01-18-02

2. Our moniters has sometimed talked to players with their whisper too. Wowo! We are just like the koreans~!

3. Also recently, A Korean GM got superpowers, and blew up japan. After that he took over Russia and now makes cake for a living. Weeeee!

I win the making up stories about korean gm contests.

May 05, 2003 02:09 am ET (#286)

K-ZS-M
Loyal Fan
925 posts
05-04-02

#284
how many castles r in the game?
how many did those ppl who got banned owned those castles?
did they help their allies in gaining cash as well?
u think only 400k was made? I'm guessing u're only going by whitehand's word, rite?
that the total sum made was only 400k

u do the math
there was WAY more than 400k made otherwise they wouldn't have banned
that NC employee already stated there were MILLIONS of scrolls bought/sold
u're blind and ignoring the facts
to make it sound like they did nothing at all

this so called "bug" in there for everyone to use?
only gives ppl who own a castle an advantage

and have u played on korean servers smurf?
if not
u shouldn't be talking about shit u don't know about

May 05, 2003 02:45 am ET (#287)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

I have so many ways to continue this discussion.

Paragraph 1.
Why must there be a distinction? If the function is defective, the use of the function may also have undisirable effects.

I will disregard the second sentence because it is just gibberish. I want to say use common sense, although I am not sure that you believe in knowledge or wisdom. Hell, I will still give it a shot. Use common sense!

Paragraph 2.
"I'm qualified because I read the list of changes."
I read your post and now I am qualified to be you. As a self proclaimed you, I announce that you have seen the error of your ways and now agree with me (I like it, false logic is fun.).

I agree the price change was done on purpose. The same with the notice about the price change. But, these events are merely coincidences, had these players duped using another item they still would have been banned. Or lets pretend the dupe was not found until months after the publish, if/when they cheated they still would have been banned.

1. Right. I was not sure if you were making that statement to trick me with symantics. There did not seem any reason to bring it up.

2. For a support method to be efficient it needs to be reliable. In game support, as many people believe, is not a good form of support. There are a number of reasons for this:
a. If you read gamedev.net or flipcode.com there are occasionally articles by support staff at other MMORPG about game support. In-game support is often high on their bad list.
b. By allowing gamemasters to chat with people it would cause people to believe there is even more favoritism. Already, even though GMs cannot chat with people, everyone assumes that they favor FL or FCA. Pretty sure NC only cares about money.

3. Castles are based on sieges. It would be difficult for a GM to modify the castle owner without admin status. Perhaps it has happened, I know there are other strange rumors where GMs cheated for players. However, if something like that had happened, in such a large gaming community, we probably could have seen it in the news. Anyway, there is no reason to talk about this now, is there?

May 05, 2003 04:06 am ET (#288)

Weathersmurf
Loyal Fan
2 posts
05-01-03

#285 - BigPope

I've played on a Korean server. My friends have played on several different Korean servers for years.

#286 - K-ZS-M

Yes, Whitehand said his castle made 400k in about an hour. There is a tax cap.

Um, Paldo got banned for making 19k. How much they did apparently doesn't matter to NC.

No, you're blind and ignoring the facts.

They did something. However, whether they made 5 adena or 800 trillion, it was not cheating.

Regular taxes give an advantage only to castle pledges. How unfair.

Yes, I still have my level 44 mage from when I started Lineage lol (except she's stripped of her items and chaotic since someone used her to kill some offender...without my consent...!!)...ah, the memories, I learned how to play and use controls and all that from trying to play her. I helped raise a knight who is now DK (omg I got so sick of FV), and several elves (but I didn't really get sick of Oren, Oren field's way kewler than FV, and funner as elf than knight).

#287 - NoLuCK

The distinction is only because of how NC worded it. They very specifically said "bug." This is not an issue about morals, but about worded rules.

So you're saying common sense dictates they changed the prat price by accident, then unintentionally told us they intentionally changed the prat price? Well, I'm glad I don't have common sense (it's common unsense...real sense isn't common ;)

Flawed analogy. They listed the price raise as a change, therefore making it hard to believe the price raise was an accident.

It wasn't a dupe. They didn't duplicate anything. It would not have been possible to gain tax money by buying from and selling to NPCs if NCI didn't put in the prat price change.

1. I'm used to calling them all GMs because on Korean servers we call them GMs. Doesn't matter.

2. Not going to argue about the merits and faults of ingame support, but that it can be done badly does not necessarily mean it's best to have none at all. As for your b, I don't think talking to everyone would really lead to bad PR unless there is evidence of favoritism. Yes, NC cares about money, but NC employees may care about other things as well.

3. Basically what happens is at the first siege, the server goes down. When it comes back up, the pledge who paid is the castle owner. By the time the second siege comes around, the castle pledge is so rich from taxes it's easy to defend. And castles like Kent and Windawood are far easier to defend than attack even if the attackers miraculously got tons of adena for pots and such without owning a castle. Here, it seems everyone knows about this stuff, although I never pay attention to the media. Yes, it's completely irrelevant; I was just commenting about it after I stated my main point, about NC Korea at least trying to avoid corruption.

May 05, 2003 04:27 am ET (#289)

K-ZS-M
Loyal Fan
925 posts
05-04-02

u don't know how much they really made

and not cheating to make millions for doing nothing?

sorry
if u want to make money in the game
u better work your ass for it
no one is going to put up with it

the main thing here is
they knew of it, they EXPLOIT it
see, not very smart to mention these days with your friends and in pledge chat
if u want to discuss about taking advantage of a bug
u go and do it on a chat program outside of lineage like MSN or whatever
their mistake to think "oh, they used oj trick, so I guess this is ok too"

the whole point is they made MILLIONS and MILLIONS
y u think they banned them?
buying and selling back is not how u're suppose to make profit in the game
so those castle owners got what they deserved and the ones who encouraged ppl to use this trick were blacklisted as well
those ppl banned should really blame the ppl who encouraged and told the entire pledge to help out and do it

if it is not cheating the tax system
then y did they do it repeatly?
don't tell me "what u talking about, they only did it once, haven't u read what ppl like whitehand said? and now they're banned for it"
it is those idiot members who wouldn't stop doing it repeatly

both parties r to be blamed
just that one party has more power over the other
so one suffers while the other laughs
if u think what they did was ok
u must have been part of the group cuz making millions for doing nothing is unfair to the rest of the ppl in the game

May 05, 2003 05:42 am ET (#290)

Weathersmurf
Loyal Fan
2 posts
05-01-03

It may be something that needs correction, it may unbalance the game, etc but technically it's not cheating.

I think NC banned them because NCI = idiots, not because they made "MILLIONS and MILLIONS" =P

Who cares about your opinion of how you're "supposed" to play...I sure don't.

I can't really make sense of what you're saying sometimes...

I don't think it was ok. But it wasn't cheating. And no, I didn't know about it until I read this "Public Service Announcement." Ad hominem doesn't become you ;)

May 05, 2003 11:42 am ET (#291)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

Smurf,

You said, "So you're saying common sense dictates they changed the prat price by accident, then unintentionally told us they intentionally changed the prat price? Well, I'm glad I don't have common sense" in responce to what I said, "I agree the price change was done on purpose. The same with the notice about the price change."

Why in the world do you refuse to read my post? Is your head really so high in the sky that you cannot understand me?

THE PRICE CHANGE WAS NOT AN ACCIDENT! <-- read that, please.

You said, "It wasn't a dupe." It clearly was a dupe. They were turning 100 adena into 110 adena time and time again. How much more dupe can you get?

THE PRICE CHANGE WAS NOT AN ACCIDENT!! <-- In case you missed it the first time.

You are a hypocrit. You quote Ghandi, "If you are in a minority of one, the truth is still the truth." and it seems you interpret it to mean a person should make an imaginary truth so that he is the minority. Ghandi is saying that even if nobody believes you, you can rely on the truth because it is true (I do believe he is referring to the universal truth, God).

You say you are "an immature, honest, open-minded, reasonable person." I would agree only that you are honest. You are not immature, you are not mature, but you are somewhere in the middle. You are only open-minded when your mind is made up to be open (Ahh yes, it is a bit cryptic). You are not reasonable, as a reasonable person will respond to reason, and you have proved to me that you are ignorant of all reason.

THE PRICE CHANGE WAS NOT AN ACCIDENT!!! <-- Third times a charm?

If you respond to me do not linger on my harsh analysis of you. You are unable able to change my mind as to your character, it is only through your actions can you be defined. I do, however, expect you to tell me that I am wrong if you believe it is so. An honest person would respond in that manner.

We are at a stand-off. I cannot continue to iterate the same points in responce to your ignoring me. Debating morals, ethics, or Lineage with you will go no where, as you only believe in what you think is true; and this belief system leaves no room for other people's thoughts. Your idealogy has become your brick wall. I do not enjoy talking to walls, as they do not listen, they only keep people out.

If you truely believe that the cheaters did not cheat, then you believe it is true. Belief is not truth, only truth is true. Believe in the truth, do not believe in beliefs. How can a seeker of truth find a path to the truth when she refuses to follow any path other than her own, the path of ignorance?

Ahh, my ignorance is proven in this post as well. I seem to have refused to give up a conversation I cannot win. Perhaps I can accept a gracious defeat knowing that my arguement has the power of truth, not deception or imagination. Then again I have caught myself talking out loud again, nobody is here, only this brick wall..

May 05, 2003 12:32 pm ET (#292)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

O boy, now that I have started I cannot shut up. I apoligize for this, however it must be said.

The adena dupe is a dupe. A finite value cannot be equal to infinity. In normal circumstances 100 adena = 100 adena, and 100a + 10a = 100a + 10a. The reason we use adena as currency is that it is finite, when currency is no longer finite it has no value. What happens when 100a != 100a or in this case 100 adena = 1 < x adena < infinity? Bad things.

It does not matter that 100 adena = 110 adena, or that 110 adena = 121 adena. 100 = 110 = 121 .. = infinity. This is a very obvious flaw, this is a dupe, in software this is a bug. Do you dispute this?

May 05, 2003 12:57 pm ET (#293)

Weathersmurf
Loyal Fan
2 posts
05-01-03

No, 'twas in response to "I want to say use common sense, although I am not sure that you believe in knowledge or wisdom. Hell, I will still give it a shot. Use common sense!" When you keep contradicting yourself, which am I supposed to believe? So I just answer on a paragraph-by-paragraph basis.

When you use silver arrows (5 for 1a) to hunt and get much more money, are you duping adena? You can infinitely make a profit this way! Just buy a few thousand arrows, and make 40k adena per hour!

Subjective "truths" are opinions. Usualy "truth" refers to objective truth (aka fact). If you keep deluding yourself that something intentional that was programmed correctly is a "bug" and many others agree with you, that doesn't make you right.

One is immature until one is mature, and one is mature when one is no longer immature...by definition. It's subjective and a quite arbitrary judgement anyway =P "An open mind is not an empty one." No, you're the one refusing to reason, just parroting "But it's a bug!" over and over despite being shown repeatedly that it is not.

I'm not ignoring you; you're just denying the truth =P It'll get somewhere, maybe not where your prejudices want you to go though heh. Morals and ethics, however, have nothing to do with this discussion. We are discussing whether it was against the rules or not, not whether it's ethical or not.

Oh, well, that deserves a "I know you are but what am I?" IMO.

I think you're bored. Me, too. Let's be friends now.

May 05, 2003 02:17 pm ET (#294)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

Symantics and word games are the mask you use to hide your nonsense. Your idealism is what is contridicting me, ignore your head, be unbiased by your ego. I will try to make it simple, avoid half truths, opinions, sarcasm, and assumptions.

When I used the term "common sense" I did not mean as you said "common unsense." I admitted that it was a bad term before I used it, it is based on opinion, knowing you would attack that statement. You read what I said, but you interpretted it to mean the opposite of what you read.

On to the dupe, and be very specific and very clear on where your view differs when you reply to me. Your example of silver arrows works great. I obviously am unable to grasp this seemingly simple concept and need you to fix my broken sense of ethical duty.
You buy 100 adena worth of arrows and you get arrows that are worth 100 adena, as intended. Agreed?
You go to hunt, killing monsters, using arrows, getting adena from the monsters. Agreed?
You buy 100 adena of arrows and got arrows worth 100,000,000 adena. This is not intended. Agreed?
You still made a transaction, so the trade worked. Agreed?
Just because something works does not mean it works correctly. Agreed?

You must agree with those facts, if you do not I am wasting my time. Just because something was intentionally programmed does not mean that it will work as intended. Stop me when im wrong..

If code that was intended to work correctly, yet does not function properly, is not a bug, what is it? If this is not a bug, then it must work as intended, and there is no reason to fix it. However, the reasons to fix this bug are numerous.

If you find a flaw in my judgement, explain it to me. Can you define non-bug? How is it different from a bug?

Adena is currency, it is finite and meant to be stable. Agree?
People exploiting the bug experience the infinate adena phemonemnum. Agree?
To people playing fairly, 100 adena is still 100 adena. Agree?

"What is going on in your head?" is only reason I persue this any further; Curiosity.

May 05, 2003 02:59 pm ET (#295)

NathanS
Loyal Fan
46 posts
02-04-03

Hehehe it was a bug, cuz it was removed and some were banned. Or Maybe it was pretty nice to that to stay so in 1 month WhiteHand and others could have at least and i think is few 200m+, oh yes thats nice for every1 else who plays hard and feels good with their items.

May 05, 2003 04:25 pm ET (#296)

Weathersmurf
Loyal Fan
2 posts
05-01-03

#294 - NoLuCK

No; someone else mentioned "word games" before. However, semantics are the difference between cheating and not cheating, since whether something is cheating or not depends on how the rules are worded.

If you get 500,000,000 silver arrows for 100 adena and NC coded it intentionally, that means that 1 adena is now worth 5,000,000 silver arrows instead of 5. If NC made a typo, that would be a bug.

If something works correctly as intended by the programmer then it is not a bug.

The only way something can be intentionally be programmed and not work as intended is if it were not programmed correctly. If you use this argument, you are saying NC did not intend for prat prices to be 200a at Pandora, but something else entirely, but somehow coded wrong.

In this case, it functioned properly (assuming that NC did intend for prat prices to be 200a, which you did admit). Perhaps it was not balanced in terms of the rest of the game, but it functioned as intended. However, players used the function in a way that was perhaps unintended, but that is A WHOLE DIFFERENT MATTER and irrelevant.

There are reasons to "fix" intentionally game imbalances. For example, b2s was too good, therefore they changed the delay. Does this mean they were "fixing" a "bug"? Should I be banned for using b2s before the update that increased the delay?

A bug is anything that is not a bug, and the dictionary defines "bug" quite nicely =P

So, if I ever hunt and make money (especially if I don't use pots, arrows, etc) I am turning zero adena into adena, which is worse than turning 100a into 110a =P

Wow, I'm flattered. Now let's be friends.

#295 - NathanS

So the shorter b2s delay was a bug? SoMs were a bug? The change in price was labelled a change by NC Korea, rather than a bug fix.

I guess all of Hitler and Stalin's victims were cheating.

May 05, 2003 08:03 pm ET (#297)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

Weathersmurf,

You said, "you are saying NC did not intend for prat prices to be 200a at Pandora." No, I did not. I said this "THE PRICE CHANGE WAS NOT AN ACCIDENT! <-- read that, please." and this "THE PRICE CHANGE WAS NOT AN ACCIDENT!! <-- In case you missed it the first time." and also this "THE PRICE CHANGE WAS NOT AN ACCIDENT!!! <-- Third times a charm?" and I also said this "I agree the price change was done on purpose." and so on and so forth. Still, you continue to put words into my mouth.

What truely boggles my mind is how you believe that a person can always do as he intended. That all basketball players make 100% of the baskets because they intended to make them. That the person in the car accident down the street meant to get blindsided by another person as she was turning a corner.

You said, "So, if I ever hunt and make money (especially if I don't use pots, arrows, etc) I am turning zero adena into adena, which is worse than turning 100a into 110a" You are so wound up in not believing the truth that you spin new lies that would instead make you into the cheater. I will just agree with you, by intentionally trying to dupe, you are duping adena by hunting, but if someone intentionaly tries to hunt, he is only hunting. Are you happy?

What is most interesting is how "The price changes was intentional" turns into "The price change was an accident." Have you been checked for dyslexia?

But, you have admitted this much " .. players used the function in a way that was perhaps unintended, .." And really, that is all that matters. By using something in a way that is unintended, that something must be used, and in this case it was Lineage, which is code; code that did not expect the players behaviors, although it intended to, and it tried, but it just ended up allowing players to exploit the system.

BOOM! POOF! (The philosopher blew up, I always wondered what happened when they contridicted themselves.)

Thank you for finally admitting that the players had exploited a bug.

May 05, 2003 09:13 pm ET (#298)

Phyrexia
Loyal Fan
12 posts
12-10-02

Eh heh heh heh....
A ha ha ha...
heh....
I've been away from lineage for almost a year now (it seems), and NC is up to its old tricks I see. I can't say I don't miss lineage, because I do, but it is exactly things like this that compelled me to leave (and lack of appropriate funds...>_<). The last major event that was a blow up..I think...was when they tried to put in the exp limit thingy...or...was that it? hell there were so many blow-ups i can't remember. OH YEAH! It was that "soft AC" thing, which I ever fully understood. When i heard people talk about it all i heard was "piss moan piss moan lets nerf mages" or something like that. But this...this is sick. The exp limit thing wasn't anything next to this. Having an account banned makes you physically sick. I don't know if anything major happened after I left lineage..uh..in December (not quite a year...DOH!) but I'm sure it will happen again. People who saw this "event" as an opprotunity, I salute you. You were just playing by the rules (unless NC warned against doing this and i just missed it). Those who criticize those who took advantage, go to hell, you were just too stupid (or cowardly?) to try. Or maybe not desperate enough ;-)

May 06, 2003 02:00 am ET (#299)

Weathersmurf
Loyal Fan
2 posts
05-01-03

#297 - NoLuCK

You said they intended to program the price change but it did not work as intended because it was not programmed correctly, meaning they meant to change the price but programmed it wrong.

If you'd stop contradicting yourself, it would be easier to figure out wth you're saying. You said it, not me.

'Scuse?

What, turning 0 adena into 40k adena isn't worse than turning 100a into 110a? =P Well, by that logic, if they were intentionally trying to dupe, they were duping adena by selling prats, but if they were intentionally trying to buy and sell prats, they were only buying and selling prats. Are you happy?

No, it's interesting how "The price change was intentional" turns into "They didn't intend to program it the way it was programmed." Have you, Mr. Ad Hominem?

According to the dictionary, that matters not one bit. The function matters, not the use of the function.

I always wondered what happened when idiots contradict themselves. (Actually, I didn't. I didn't even always exist.) I see now that they ask others if they've been checked for dyslexia.

And you accuse me of putting words in your mouth...tsk tsk...

Fine, then, we won't be friends. Have it your way.

#298 - Phyrexia

Nice name ;)

Where ya been after you quit? Any decent games around?

May 06, 2003 07:12 am ET (#300)

K-ZS-M
Loyal Fan
925 posts
05-04-02

sounds like u're here only to argue
no point continuing to fight....

looks like we made it to post #300 lol

and the discussion ends here.......

I hope....

May 06, 2003 09:21 am ET (#301)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

Weathersmurf

You said, "You said they intended to program the price change but it did not work as intended because it was not programmed correctly, meaning they meant to change the price but programmed it wrong." Finally you understand! This is exactly what I meant.

The price change did not matter in the global sense. This bug could have happened for any item that had a sell price equal to its buy price. NC has thousands of NPCS in lineage, all of whom have different files to define their behavior. By changing a price in 1 file (intentionally) the effect was handled with an undesirable effect in others (unintentionally).

You said, "The function matters, not the use of the function." The bug existed before it was used, surely that much is clear. The function had the bug, the excessive use of the function constitutes exploitation.

You said, "If you'd stop contradicting yourself," my stance from the get-go has been clear. You contridict me, I do not contridict myself. You understood my saying "This happened" to mean "This did not happen".

You said, "And you accuse me of putting words in your mouth...tsk tsk..." the reason for this is you kept telling me that I said something I in fact said the opposite of.

You said, "I see now that they ask others if they've been checked for dyslexia." I gave you a valid reason for asking if you had Dyslexia. You repeatedly misunderstood "Did" to mean "Did not." I suspect everyone is an Idiot in your eyes, there is no way for me to change that opinion.

I do not care if we are friends or not, but I cannot be friends with someone who refuses to take me seriously. I have seriously replied to everything you say, but you refuse to understand what I say (I fully believe that you can understand, but you won't, otherwise I would not continue corresponding). Last night, I was frustrated by this apparent ignorance, and it was reflected in my reply. Are you only attempting to make me angry?

May 06, 2003 11:16 am ET (#302)

Sunrise
Loyal Fan
30 posts
06-05-02

Noluck:
You know you can never convince your opponent... you both firmly believe in your own stances... so why would u get angry? Smurf was kind enough to offer to drop it all and be friends... you should be a big enough man to accept it -.-;;
Smurf:
Gurls r so much cooler than guys, eh? Oops.. I think noluck saw that >.<

May 07, 2003 12:09 am ET (#303)

NoLuCK
Loyal Fan
76 posts
03-21-02

Sunrise,

You are probably right. You are also right about girls being so much cooler than guys. You know, I wish I was with a girl right now..

May 07, 2003 12:39 am ET (#304)

K-ZS-M
Loyal Fan
925 posts
05-04-02

smurf is a girl?

May 07, 2003 04:55 pm ET (#305)

Weathersmurf
Loyal Fan
2 posts
05-01-03

#301/303 - NoLuck

Then what did they mean for the price change to be programmed as? 150a?

Again, that's irrelevant.

What bug?

No, I understood your saying "A + B" to mean "C" because I saw nothing else that A + B could be.

Because you did say something the opposite of something else you said. However, you said I said the opposite of what I said which I never did say.

Nope, I understood the "did" as "did" and the "did not" as "did not." No, really?

Oh, so you discriminate on who can be your friend, eh? ;p Well, either whatever you're saying is so difficult to understand I think I see it but I actually don't, or I do understand and it's bs. Hmm perhaps I am subconsciously ;) But that I'm aware of, no. I'm just bored. And have this stubborn urge to correct people's misconceptions.

Of course she's right =P Hahaha inferiority complex now? Err, why?

#302 - Sunrise

Keke...well, my brother is way kewler than me...and some other individuals... But we need something to counter THEIR sexism ;)

#304 - K-ZS-M

Nah, really?? Whoever could've guessed?

No ****... =P

May 08, 2003 01:17 am ET (#306)

Sunrise
Loyal Fan
30 posts
06-05-02

Smurf:
Yea THEIR sexism! hehe I luv being an azn girl... I get to make fun of guys and they don't flip out, and I can make fun of azns cuz I am one ^^;; I feel sorry for white males they can't make any jokes :(

K:
yea.. she mentions it earlier.. but very very sneakily! <-- is that a word?

NoL:
I'm glad we agree on something ^_~ at least you're a good sport about it!

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